Just a quick note to apologize for veering into the Disney discussion! I saw the Super7-Ultimates title on the forum main index but missed this was in the TMNT folder and not the General Toys Talk forum....so posted wrong spot.

@mikeysee Well, Flynn said in a Fwoosh interview that wave 11 is 3 vintage toy homages (including Rat King) and 1 of the TMNT in costume or disguise that wasn't from the vintage line but looked like it could be. And that waves 12 and 14 were 2003 based -- and I think he even said in that interview that wave 12 was the four 2003 TMNT themselves.

Trying to track back:

People posted Facebook and Instagram DMs with Flynn back around when Rat King dropped where he said they couldn't do vintage toy homages at all unless those designs also appeared somewhere else and that weapons racks were definitely no longer allowed.

I had private conversations with a couple of people at Super7 who aren't necessarily public faces who confirmed that.

Someone at TFW2005 claimed to have a source at Viacom who confirmed that Playmates complained about the use of vintage toy designs but that Nickelodeon firmly reminded them that Nick considers itself the owners of those designs. Playmates even released a statement on Facebook through a toy historian/author who had worked with them asserting that they "had no control" over what Nick did with vintage toy designs.

Super7 DID get swamped with people feeding them reference material for cases where toy designs had appeared outside of the toyline. It was a lot. Probably half the TMNT costume variants were located all but around 6-7 of the unique characters. There's a lot of seriously obscure stuff out there. Did you know that Halfcourt the Giraffe appeared in his toy design in Rise of the TMNT? Anyway, from conversations I had, a lot of it apparently tracked back to Mirage Studios' style guides for licensors, which were published annually, and which featured NEARLY every toy design as available to licensors. (Greeting cards and stickers especially tended to lift directly from the guide rather than hire artists.)

In another interview, maybe with the Thundercats.org guy, Flynn said that they had reached out to Nickelodeon after seeing the Rat King backlash and that they wanted to pull Rat King and reassess. Flynn noted that the rep was "impressed" and said that few companies would pull a design that far along to please fans. Flynn's initial interviews said that Super7 "had gone too far" with toy designs and that they had agreed to "evolve" toy designs further. Later he said in some interview that they had "done too much".

I know the interviews where he's talked about the 2003 TMNT (Fwoosh is one of three) pretty much all discuss having talked more to the Nickelodeon rep. The Fwoosh one is the first one where he outright called wave 11 Rat King a "toy version" and said that 3/4ths of wave 11 would be toy versions.

I don't have a PUBLIC source for the details but I've been told that, essentially, Nick didn't want to upset Playmates and had around three key conversations with Flynn, the first essentially asking them to avoid using toy only designs, the second suggesting that Super7 put more original flourishes into the designs, and the third essentially cutting a deal to keep the line less than half vintage toy based, with every other wave being non-vintage toy.

I think based on what little I heard third hand that we're unlikely to get particulars but that Flynn related fan feedback to the rep to get wiggle room and that once it was established that Mirage's own licensing guides included nearly every figure design, the conversation shifted to what Nick's real concern was: keeping Playmates from feeling slighted.

(I have heard informally that the deep clearances of Super7 merch may have made Playmates feel more threatened as they had no way of knowing it wasn't a deliberate strategy by Super7 to take their business. Playmates had traditionally not been bothered by more expensive items.)

Anyway, what I'd had someone confirm was that the final deal was about what ratio of Super7's products were classic toy based.

It's my GUESS that it's "less than 50%", just based on Flynn emphasizing that toys homages were only every other wave going forward and that wave 11 is 3/4ths toy based... Because that LOOKS like they're trying to nudge it below 50%. It may be that it can be AT 50% instead of "less than". Or it may be that things like GITD figures get counted in.

(I do get the impression that a redeco of Playmates toy homage doesn't count as a toy homage if it's a new deco. So GITD Slash or Mirage Casey would be "new" whereas Metalhead Mikey would be "retro".)

So, for example, Metalhead Raph, Don, and Leo, Samurai Leo redecos as the other 3 TMNT, Genghis Frog and Napoleon reworked into Rasputin and Attila, etc. would all count as "original".

One thing that tends to affirm all of this is that Flynn mentioned Hot Spot as one of the top characters he wants to do in a recent interview. I'm not aware of Hot Spot appearing anywhere except the vintage toys.

The only other details I've managed to get thirdhand are:

There are or were plans to crossover the TMNT with another license Super7 has rights to that Playmates never did in the 90s "but could have". My brain keeps going back to Toxic Crusaders. Regardless, it's 90s style TMNT mashed up with the 90s version of another property. I THINK Flynn teased this in an interview.

The work done by sculptors isn't linear. Pizzaface has had multiple sculpt attempts over the years. I think someone told me at a con that work started on Pizzaface around when wave 4 was solicited.

While S7 has laid off a couple of sculptors who worked on TMNT internally last December (and Alex Brewer was snatched up as exclusive by Mondo to work on their X-Men TAS 1/6 figures), supposedly it could be a couple of years before we see everything those people did for Ultimates figures. I'm pretty sure even if that work needs to be revised or rationed that S7 has an interest in getting it all out there. (Which doesn't mean there aren't new designs in new waves. Just that completed stuff is backlogged and has to be shuffled in as appropriate.)

@pg-superfan Thanks for the insight. That was an interesting read.

It's not news, but it still galls me every time I read about Playmates getting their panties twisted over this line. As if these figures are in any way competing with whatever unpainted, unarticulated, un-scaled stuff Playmates is peddling. If Playmates was run by half-way competent people, they could very easily look at the success of NECA -and- Super7 as proof that TMNT fans are here for all of it if you just make a product they want to buy, and that Playmates' utter failure to capture that adult collector market has nothing to do with Super7.

I do get wanting to protect what you view as 'yours.' But geez. Even in the kindest light, Playmates just comes off as petty in all of this.

Anyway...  I love how GITD Powder is SO expensive that Super7 has used it for basically every TMNT exclusive to date. A better exclusive version of Slash would be to release him in the correct color, like he was originally advertised to be. If they did that, and kept the overall QC the same as on the current Slash... he'd easily be the best figure in this line.

In every situation where fans and collectors are screwed out of good, collector versions of the property, Playmates has their mitts involved--every single time. 

@pg-superfan Thank you very much for that detailed explanation.  I'm going to call it encouraging, though I am worried what Brian's interpretation of "homage" is.  Like, the Rat King they canceled was an homage IMO.  Guerrila Gorilla was kind of an homage.  But almost everything else was pretty much a deluxe-ified 1:1 recreation.  And that's what I (and seemingly most people) want.  Gimme that nostalgia, I don't want Brian's interpretation of it.

@mikeysee Oh. I agree.

That said, starting with about wave 7, there are some significant differences and I think they're generally in an acceptable range. Space Cadet Raph has probably the most changes but I wouldn't recognize it without looking at him.

"More paint" alone gets you into different territory.

The example I always give is Hot Spot. A lot of people miss his burn marks because they aren't highlighted with paint. Likewise, he has simple yellow overalls whereas real firefighter overalls are more mustard colored with bright yellow and white stripes. If it's just about things like more paint apps, I think S7 can shine.

I honestly think a few S7 TMNT releases are lacking in paint apps, which isn't something I'd traditionally say about Super7.

I feel like the ropes on Slash's shoulderpads (which they did paint onnthe GITD version) should be painted and IMHO the Turtle Van's orange should be two tones of orange to really sell the realism. Like a gloss automotive orange and maybe a metallic orange.

We're not going to have a good sense of the future until wave 11 orders go up.

If it looks promising and sufficiently retro to me, I'm probably buying more. If not, I'm probably looking at still getting any homages of the figures through 1990's vintage releases to "round out" the set but am probably less receptive to more stuff.

The new Fwoosh Friday interview is up. For those of us who solely or primarily only care about Super7 for the TMNT line, I will save you the hour:

• Guerilla Gorilla is big!
• Guerilla Gorilla wasn't a vintage toy!
• Brian has lots of stuff he can't say about stuff he can and can't make!
• Brian has lots of amazing ideas for TMNT that he hopes he can do! Nothing he can say now, and he isn't sure he can do them, but he sure hopes he does.
• The Party Van is a van that will fit four figures!

I got my GITD Slash Figure direct from Super7 this week. Cool figure, but it's the absolute last time I preorder from them direct. $10 shipping compared to "free" if added to my BBTS Pile of Loot, because I already have stuff I am paying $4 to ship so adding this on is free.

Also have to prepay in full a year in advance and risk they dont fulfill the order, go bankrupt, and it's too late to get my credit card to dispute it.

Wow! Brian Flynn just discussed this on the Fwoosh weekly. I left it on in the background even though I only cared about the TMNT discussion. He said why would anyone preorder direct if we know we can buy it from BBTS later at the same price? And it hurts their bottom line.

The thing that bums me out is I was promised by Super7 that preordering these TMNT GITD figures was the only way to get them. Direct preorder only. Otherwise I'd have waited for BBTS. So I know they are lying when they say that in the future. 

I'm not mad that it's available through BBTS, I am upset Super7 lied that direct preorder was the only way to get it. They lied to me twice. I also pre-ordered the TMNT GITD turtles direct. Paid extra for shipping. Took the risk of not getting fulfilled. And then they were available on Amazon at clearance prices.

I think one of the things that left me slightly cold with the Ultimate Mutagen Man was that none of his guts were painted.  Maybe that would've looked "wrong" after everyone was so used to the vintage toy, but that's kind of what I was expecting when it was announced...

Heads up in case anyone still needs them...

Both Leonardo and Donatello are $22 on Amazon Prime right now. Mikey is $27. Raph is $40. 

Rey Filet is $27

I picked up Leo, Donny, and Mikey. Will wait on Raph. Haven't picked up any from this line before but I've kept my eyes on them, and those prices are too good to pass up. Leo and Donny are cheaper than Marvel Legends.  

Would have grabbed each of those at that price if I was in time. They’re back up to $40 range each.

I'm really looking forward to Super7 doing the 2003 version of the TMNT, but I don't know if doing all 4 Turtles right of the bat is a good idea. Personally while I'll get the Turtles I as someone that likes to mix in the different incarnations of the TMNT franchise together would rather be getting characters like Hun, Silver Sentry, the Foot Elite, Nano and Khan that are unique to 2003.

@ben Super7 basically screws over their most loyal customers with their release methods. It looks like some recent waves of their products have at least offered some bonus stuff for people who preorder entire waves through them, but it's hardly enough as far as I'm concerned. There really is little to no reason to purchase through them directly unless you're just really into something of theirs and want to issue a vote of confidence with your wallet by paying a little extra (and upfront). I watched the recent Fwoosh interview and it was a big humorous to see Brian wallow a bit on preorders being soft and it's simply because there's no reason to buy through them. And retailers probably aren't ordering as much as they used to because they have to aggressively clearance the stuff to get rid of it. Super7 had their bubble and it's already popped and they really need to focus on the product if they want to maintain the consumer base they currently have. Seeing him fret about Disney was laughable because at no point did he think "Maybe my product isn't good enough?"

Posted by: @misfit

↑

 Seeing him fret about Disney was laughable because at no point did he think "Maybe my product isn't good enough?"

@misfit Bingo bango. It never seems to (outwardly) even occur to Brian that the product he's putting out is just subpar. It's that simple and yet seems to utterly elude him. Or it's not something he's willing to even tiptoe around the possibility of when in front of a camera.

But I could believe it actually being the case. People like Brian tend to end up in a sort of echo chamber or positivity bubble. All the customers he directly speaks with regularly are people like Pixel Dan or Veebs. People that want to maintain their access to him for a variety of reasons. Those people just aren't going to hit him with any hard questions or difficult truths.
And while I'm sure he sees some of the social media feedback - it's always going to be mixed between obviously ridiculous hate, legitimate criticism, and positivity, and then the ultra-positivity people being like 'ignore the haters, your product is the BEST.' And that last sentiment is, of course, being echoed to him, I'm certain, by your Pixel Dans and so on that he interacts with directly.

So... it's very easy for someone like Brian to REALLY think he's doing fuckin' God's Work over here.

That being said, let me be perfectly clear that I don't think that's an even remotely acceptable excuse to put out crappy products with obviously bad QC. It's still entirely and completely Brian's fault that he apparently doesn't personally open or handle the Ultimates products that his company produces.