@aceofknaves Love this post. And as someone who writes villains professionally, I WANT them to remind us of the real world. I mean in a perfect world a hero can be a hero because he's doing the right thing, but in fiction, having the counterpoint - what terrible people do when they punch down, abuse power, engage in hatred, all that stuff - is a truly powerful tool.
I used to teach a class a few times a year on writing sympathetic villains, but I don't anymore because I don't want sympathetic villains. Our real world villains don't deserve it, so why make fictional villains that way?
So this last bit is interesting to me - but it is long so:
Or, and this one kind of blew my mind - I just watched the recent Peacock series Day of the Jackal. Now I read the Frederick Forsyth novel back in the late 80's. I remember the book being an thriller about government agents trying to track down a skilled assassin. It was an exciting book and the 'good guy' cop ended up getting the bad guy in the end. But in the new series they turn this totally on its head - we spend 8 episodes getting to know both the Jackal and the agent trying to catch him. They create a sympathetic back-story for the Jackal. He was stationed in Afghanistan as a sniper in a special forces detachment. His group is on a mission and they end up massacring everyone at a civilian wedding because they thought their target was there. They cover it up - but the Jackal can't stomach it and eventually he blows up his crew and fakes his own death. Now we can 'understand' what turned him. They humanize him with a wife and small child. He's taking this one last job for a big payday and then will stop to be with his family. They go out of their way to humanize him.
We also get the family backstory of the agent chasing him - she's a careerist, she frequently misses meals and moments with her family, she misses her daughter's recital, her husband's big presentation. And then one of the bad guys she's after finds her home and threatens her daughter and instead of capitulating she shoots him while he's holding her daughter. She risked the safety of her daughter to get her target. Even after given an ultimatum by her family she can't resist going after the Jackal. And when she finally gets to him - he shoots her before she can shoot him. He gets away to go after the fat cats that hired him and then sicced the government agents after him to avoid paying.
So the the bad guy wins - but he's chasing the "bigger bad guy" who paid for him to do (some of) the killing he's done. So that's who we should really root against. That is such an enormous departure from the original novel that I am shocked Forsyth - who is still alive, though 86 - allowed them to do it.
It's not that the show was bad. It wasn't. It was well made It was well acted. It was a good watch. It's just that the story was changed so that the bad guy - who we now know a little about why he was broken - ends up prevailing. And the "good guy" who maybe wasn't totally good because she sacrificed family connection for the sake of her work did it 'all for nothing'. It's a little nihilistic, it's a little grim.
But it's very much on point about "sympathetic villains". We see way more of that in media - especially prestige media - than we used to.
any way - pew pew
I get what you're saying with the main character that's actually a villain we're supposed to side with, but some of them, nah. Sopranos is one that I really enjoyed but never felt like Tony was a great good or decent person, and Breaking Bad... I never once liked Walter. It was completely bizarre watching a show where I was constantly against the main character. Never was I on the edge of my seat because I was worried he wasn't gonna make it this time. I was always disappointed every time he succeeded. The Shield was another one. I enjoyed the show and the plot, but the characters, as people, I hate.
I was the kid that was always rooting for Wiley Coyote to just once eat that flightless bird for lunch……….
@leor I know there are a lot of us who thought of Road Runner as the villain. Wyle was just trying to survive... He just wasn't too smart about it most of the time. 😀
@ru1977 The Shield might have one of the bleakest endings in TV history. Vic Mackey is an unrepentant, selfish, barbaric POS and he wins. Feels a bit like real life. That being said, Sutter always said that if you were rooting for Mackey you should look in the ****ing mirror, man, cos we always knew who he was.
(I always appreciated on Sutter's Sons of Anarchy that even if you could LIKE the monsters, he never made them good, and pretty often he made them both stupid AND vile. I knew some biker gang dudes growing up and every time there was a plot moment there where someone did something inexplicably stupid, I'd think: welp, that checks out, honestly. Kinda why I have no problem with the 'noks being absolute doofuses. Biker gangs are not brain trusts.)
I don't want a sympathetic backstory for Cobra Commander or Major Bludd. I do like middle ground characters who aren't fully villains like Storm Shadow though. The "I got here through circumstances, not malice" types. I just lose my mind when I see like, Cruella Deville get a sympathetic backstory. The woman skinned puppies. I don't need to know her dad was mean to her. SHE SKINS. PUPPIES.
Guys, no more off topic stuff. Some of you guys are writing novels.
Sorry... pew, pew.. G.I. Joe is kewl!
@ru1977 The Shield might have one of the bleakest endings in TV history. Vic Mackey is an unrepentant, selfish, barbaric POS and he wins. Feels a bit like real life. That being said, Sutter always said that if you were rooting for Mackey you should look in the ****ing mirror, man, cos we always knew who he was.
Well.... he did win, and he didn't. He was stripped of everything and everyone that mattered to him and he's now stuck surrounded by people who know he's an unrepentant, selfish, barbaric POS in a small cubicle doing nothing that he enjoys... he may as well be in a prison cell. I kinda love that ending for him.
I don't want a sympathetic backstory for Cobra Commander or Major Bludd. I do like middle ground characters who aren't fully villains like Storm Shadow though. The "I got here through circumstances, not malice" types. I just lose my mind when I see like, Cruella Deville get a sympathetic backstory. The woman skinned puppies. I don't need to know her dad was mean to her. SHE SKINS. PUPPIES.
Totally fair. I enjoy the Cruella movie when I pretend it's not leading to 101 Dalmatians.
Not to write a novel (uh huh huh, I actually have just a handful of pages before I finish a draft on my latest novel, then need to edit out 15,000 words), but another thing about the shows about characters that ought to be villains is almost all of them have a shrew character that is less a character and more an obstacle to prevent 'our hero' from the fun misbehaving they love to do. Carmela Soprano may be the best of these as far as having an actual arc and development, but Skylar White, Tara on SOA, Rita on Dexter, etc, end up just annoying the audience members who enjoy these bad boys being bad. I think I was annoyed by them because of weak writing. but one exception for me is Kim Wexler, who doesn't fit that mold at all to my eyes. In fact, I think Better Call Saul is, in a lot of ways, the inverse of Breaking Bad. As much as Breaking Bad is about Walter coming to accept he was always a megalomaniacal POS, I see BSC as the opposite. Jimmy's kinda a decent person who is really good at playing at being bad... but in the end, he kinda isn't. And Kim's main character trait isn't 'pointing out he's doing bad'.
So now that we are getting Classifieds Crystal Ball I think we should get a Classifieds Psyche Out next. I had the original ARAH figure but I always could not remember what his actual specialty was. To me he was always the tv cable guy since he had those mini satellite dishes on his arms and doubled as some kind communications officer like Breaker or Dial Tone. Apparently he is a deceptive warfare specialist…….whatever the hell that means but it sounds cool. He’s also a social services counselor, born in San Francisco, and went to Berkeley. Good god, this guy is literally my neighbor. I’d be real curious as to what a Classifieds version would look like.
I always thought Psyche was one of the ugliest figures in my collection (that hair part! that head gear!) but I honestly think Classified could redeem him.
It’s because he looks sooo ridiculous, that I’m actually intrigued if a classifieds version can somehow improve his looks.
it's funny how we're anxious for Classifieds to get to some of the weirder and lamer characters.
And wanting some that deserved to be made. Where our Big Lob at?? We got Jinx, Tunnel Rat, Chuckles, and Law and Order are coming soon. It’s time to finish off the movie rookies. He’d probably be a more profitable basketball player figure than the entire Hasbro Starting Lineup. 😈
Psyche wasn't on my list but I do think they'd somehow make him cool. Or cool-er. Maybe not fully cool.
My top "you gotta be kidding me" wish list is:
- Spearhead in peach and orange camo, with his cat, of course
- Neon Green Sci-Fi
- Lisa Frank Color Palette Deep Six
- Cutter WITH orange life vest for (FOR SAFETY)
- Voltar
- Ambush for that mustache alone (Sidebar: is there an action figure collection running right now with more respect for the 'stache? They have NOT pulled punches with 80s soupcatchers on any of these figures and respect them for it.)
We already had Air Tight previewed, yeah? I want the yellowest, can see him from orbit Air Tight possible. And of course the Renegades and Battle Force 2000 are collectively must have.
Reviewing my list though I'm wondering if we're due for a Marauders Mutt and Junk soon. Or how many characters they plan on double-dipping into Night Force, Marauders, and Tiger Force since fun figures like Lifeline, Spearhead, and Muskrat could be easy repaints for them. (Oh hey, Psyche was on Night Force too! Double trouble!)
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