So @ru1977, I will grant that we don't know if the Coven was up to no good, but as aleks points out, the Sith are in fact evil, and that would be a huge change to suggest they are just misunderstood.
I agree with PantherCult, Qimir may not be Sith in the strictest sense - he even says "You might call me Sith" which he said in a way that made me think he didn't really want to be called that. Having said that, he purposely engaged in getting Jedi killed by pushing Mae, and directly chose a fight with the Jedi when he had a chance, so he isn't good in my mind, no matter what comes out about how he left the Jedi training (I do not want another "he seemed bad, so his Master tried to kill him" that was the worst thing about Luke's portrayal in the ST). I am a fan of the idea that the Knights of Ren are not necessarily "evil" but "amoral" and that Qimir will be the founder of that line, which is not quite Sith, but not good either.
The showrunner has said it is Plagueius, although in show and in official cannon I don't think we should know what he looks like, so if we had no EU implications, we would be guessing at who that was...
I am thinking what they were trying to show in the two flashbacks was that both groups let their negative beliefs about the other get in the way, more than a true Roshomon effect. The first one was from the Coven's prejudiced perception and mistrust of the Jedi that would have possibly kept Osha from the Jedi; the second was from the Jedi's perception of what the coven was up to. But that in both groups there was variance of opinion and rational thought - Osha and Mae's Mom that was killed was closest to Indara, Sol was closest to Koril about getting worked up about it all. The Jedi violated the Coven's space while the Coven violated the Jedis' minds.
Anyway, I think some of us, me included, are protective of the concept of the Jedi - as someone who was paying attention when they announced "Revenge of the Jedi" and agreed with the fan backlash that the Jedi, as we learned from Ben and Yoda, did not seek revenge - well that's the Jedi I have wanted to see, not what we have gotten since then.
So, something I am hoping we will see explored in a season 2 is that Qimir is not in fact a Sith at all. He broke from the Jedi training - and delved into the dark side, but I think on his own and not at the hand of a Sith master.
Could 'Ren' be a whole other school of Force teaching? Something obviously not limited to the Rule of Two, something with a different goal than my headcanon of Sith body-hopping?
Also, are we gonna learn why the Jedi robes changed from yellow to brown? Are we ever gonna learn why all Jedi wear them - but so do Tatooine civilians? Are they a dedicated outfit for Jedi or just off-the-shelf poor people clothes? Did we see anybody other than Jedi wearing the yellows in this show?
@adrienveidt See, I would be interested in seeing something like that get explored. I don't know if Lucasfilm is interested in exploring that... but that's the kind of story I would find really interesting.
So what exactly was Sol trying to explain about them? They're not just clones they're clones of Aniseya herself, right? This takes place before the Kaminoans perfect cloning and forced-growth, which is why they (and presumably Anakin) had to be conceived and gestated in a womb, right? It's been 25years and we still can't get an explanation of WHY any of them are doing this stuff, tho. Give me a damned *motive* already and just admit it's all about Sith wanting to body-hop into ever-more Force-powerful bodies instead of not giving us anything whatsoever. It's literally the only thing that makes any sense given what we've been given since TPM and it's the thing that explains EVERYTHING that happens in this galaxy.
I think the motive is simple, they want to control life be manipulating the Force - live longer/forever, create beings they can control, inhabit as clones, who knows - whatever it is and could be all of the above, the Jedi correctly view it as "unnatural".
But I don't think the twins or Anakin are clones the way the Clone Troopers are - they are magically generated from the Force itself, and whether this is something the Force "allows/wants" or is unwillingly manipulated is open to discussion. I think the best implication is unwillingly manipulated by Palpy and maybe the twins mothers than the Force somehow was making a choice to create them or Anakin.
Yeah, except all of Palpy's clones in RotS and Gideon's in Mando show them in decanter bottles so I'm thinking the twins and Anakin had to be done via the Force simply because the Kaminoans hadn't perfected the tech yet. I'm wondering if ForceLifeCreation isn't 'simply' a matter of needing to have fine-enough control over ForceTK to be able to manipulate chromosomes in an ovum to kick off blastocyst development.
So @ru1977, I will grant that we don't know if the Coven was up to no good, but as aleks points out, the Sith are in fact evil, and that would be a huge change to suggest they are just misunderstood.
Well, just like I'm not trying to say all Jedi are bad because of characters like Sol, Vern, or even Indara (ultimately), I grant that at least some, likely most, but perhaps not all Sith are bad. I also think Qimir could be likened more to a revolutionary who is absolutely willing to get his hands dirty, as opposed to someone like Sidious who is willing to kill everyone he can to take power. I also wonder if taking power was sorta the 'best' way to extinguish the Jedi, but of course power for its own sake became all he really wanted, while other Sith or Dark Siders just wanted to disrupt the Jedi in order to be able to exist. but I don't know how much of stuff like Malgus etc is considered canon.
Mostly I'm just spitballing and rambling. I don't firmly believe a whole lot here as much as speculating on possibilities. I admit to being a contrarian.
I agree with PantherCult, Qimir may not be Sith in the strictest sense - he even says "You might call me Sith" which he said in a way that made me think he didn't really want to be called that. Having said that, he purposely engaged in getting Jedi killed by pushing Mae, and directly chose a fight with the Jedi when he had a chance, so he isn't good in my mind, no matter what comes out about how he left the Jedi training
Yeah, his wording was very specific. I totally get that. A lot of revolutionaries are seen as bad by rational people since they actively commit violence to reach their ends and a lot of times don't appear worried with collateral damage. No question he provoked the situation.
(I do not want another "he seemed bad, so his Master tried to kill him" that was the worst thing about Luke's portrayal in the ST).
Agreed.
I am a fan of the idea that the Knights of Ren are not necessarily "evil" but "amoral" and that Qimir will be the founder of that line, which is not quite Sith, but not good either.
Same here.
I am thinking what they were trying to show in the two flashbacks was that both groups let their negative beliefs about the other get in the way, more than a true Roshomon effect. The first one was from the Coven's prejudiced perception and mistrust of the Jedi that would have possibly kept Osha from the Jedi; the second was from the Jedi's perception of what the coven was up to. But that in both groups there was variance of opinion and rational thought - Osha and Mae's Mom that was killed was closest to Indara, Sol was closest to Koril about getting worked up about it all. The Jedi violated the Coven's space while the Coven violated the Jedis' minds.
Yeah, that makes sense. And pretty Lucasian with the rhyming.
Anyway, I think some of us, me included, are protective of the concept of the Jedi - as someone who was paying attention when they announced "Revenge of the Jedi" and agreed with the fan backlash that the Jedi, as we learned from Ben and Yoda, did not seek revenge - well that's the Jedi I have wanted to see, not what we have gotten since then.
And I imagine we still will, it just wasn't in this series. The Old Republic movie or whatever seems like a perfect place for that.
...Force somehow was making a choice to create them or Anakin.
I'd argue against that. The prophecy of a chosen one returning balance to the Force, in my eyes, feels like something the Force willed. The coven also claimed to not believe in 'using' the force. They seemed more Wiccan-y or like Indigenous cultures who see all things as connected and thus to be respected and nurtured rather than used and exploited. The Jedi even mention 'the will of the Force' as well. And I know The Force has always been kinda nebulous, so we can probably argue this at length without really coming to a firm conclusion either way, but I always felt Anakin was created because The Force willed it. I also interpreted balance to mean the Jedi were too many while the Sith were too few, and that something in between (once again, where I thought Luke was going in the end) was the proper way.
Do we know where the Prophecy originated? Who first spoke/wrote it? Could it have been BS planted by the Sith?
What a lot of you are suggesting is basically what I referred to when I said I hope that whatever follows for Qimir and Osha is a more nuanced take on the concept of the dark side. Qimir was intentionally evasive with basically everyone in the show, in a somewhat annoying manner, but it would not surprise me at all if his philosophy on the dark side is just that using one's emotions (such as anger) is just another path towards wielding the Force and not necessarily a negative one. He's obviously a bad dude to a certain degree since he's a literal murderer, but if we're going to look at the Jedi through shades of gray it makes sense to do the same with dark side users. It also wouldn't have to conclude that, should Qimir actually feel that way, that he's right about it. The dark side could be confirmed to be a corrupting, cancerous, power that destroys everyone with enough time if that is what is decided. Or not, and it's just the Sith who are truly evil through their use of the Force.
It's also kind of funny how everyone seemed to instinctually know that was Darth Plageuius on the island even though there technically isn't a canon depiction of the character. I just assumed it when I saw him as I just kind of assumed whatever story this show was kickstarting was going to tie into that character. I was a little disappointed that it apparently is him though as I thought it might have been interesting if Osha ended up being Plagueius. If the only canon account of the old master is from Palpatine himself then he could easily be dismissed as an unreliable narrator. Or there could have been some body-swapping involved along the way - I don't know. It just might have been a fun turn.
Also, are we gonna learn why the Jedi robes changed from yellow to brown?
I'm assuming an upcoming Disney+ series addressing a Jedi civil war between the Yellows and the Browns. A sort of "House of the Krayt Dragon"
I always felt Anakin was created because The Force willed it.
Two reasons I don't like that theory - one, it means the Force has its own intelligence to make decisions - that makes the Force more like a deity with its own prerogative than an energy field that some people are able to access to make deeper connections to the universe around them; two, it also means the Force itself was fine with Anakin presumably going "dark" and helping cause the death of millions as long as in the end it balance - because if I believe that the Force was making a choice to bring balance somehow, it did so in a way that caused a lot of pain as compared to, I don't know, simply having Palpy have a heart attack.
...it would not surprise me at all if his philosophy on the dark side is just that using one's emotions (such as anger) is just another path towards wielding the Force and not necessarily a negative one. The dark side could be confirmed to be a corrupting, cancerous, power that destroys everyone with enough time if that is what is decided.
I view the dark side as it has been portrayed as substance abuse. You start down that road, some can maybe handle it, some it consumes completely, but it rarely makes you a better person or brings out the best in someone, and certainly isn't something that most people can cope with forever without it spiraling at some point.
@adrienveidt I think the Force created ones are born with a natural affinity for the Force. I am not sure if it has been established that a clone also gets the level of Force affinity of who it was cloned from? I guess it ought to, as I felt Lucas established the whole Midichlorian thing as a way to maybe show how Force affinity could be passed down from parent to child like a genetic trait.
What a lot of you are suggesting is basically what I referred to when I said I hope that whatever follows for Qimir and Osha is a more nuanced take on the concept of the dark side. Qimir was intentionally evasive with basically everyone in the show, in a somewhat annoying manner, but it would not surprise me at all if his philosophy on the dark side is just that using one's emotions (such as anger) is just another path towards wielding the Force and not necessarily a negative one.
Absolutely. And I feel using ones emotions doesn't inherently have to be dark side. Luke was able to.
He's obviously a bad dude to a certain degree since he's a literal murderer,
I won't argue that he is a good dude but did he murder? He certainly put himself in a position to be attacked, then aggressively negotiated as it were. But had he not killed the Jedi, they likely would have killed him.
but if we're going to look at the Jedi through shades of gray it makes sense to do the same with dark side users.
Absolutely!
It also wouldn't have to conclude that, should Qimir actually feel that way, that he's right about it. The dark side could be confirmed to be a corrupting, cancerous, power that destroys everyone with enough time if that is what is decided. Or not, and it's just the Sith who are truly evil through their use of the Force.
Right, he may not be entirely wrong.
It's also kind of funny how everyone seemed to instinctually know that was Darth Plageuius on the island even though there technically isn't a canon depiction of the character. I just assumed it when I saw him as I just kind of assumed whatever story this show was kickstarting was going to tie into that character. I was a little disappointed that it apparently is him though as I thought it might have been interesting if Osha ended up being Plagueius. If the only canon account of the old master is from Palpatine himself then he could easily be dismissed as an unreliable narrator. Or there could have been some body-swapping involved along the way - I don't know. It just might have been a fun turn.
True, but we could teeter into another Snoke situation. Sometimes it's cool to have a straight forward lineage rather than man behind the curtain trickery.
Do we know where the Prophecy originated? Who first spoke/wrote it? Could it have been BS planted by the Sith?
Great question. As far as I know, the prequels are the only time it's mentioned on screen. But yeah, it would be good to know when and where it came from..was it within the order, something they found on a rock on a forgotten planet? Did an incredible master simply foresee it?
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