@ru1977 Interesting interview. I'm not sure that episode sold me on the idea Osha saw anything in him at all as a person, just curious about his beliefs and maybe agreeing with some issues with the Jedi, maybe getting him talking to figure out what to do. But I would expect her to be more on her guard about being manipulated than that given it has only bee a day of seeing him slaughter a bunch of folks and try to kill her sister and kidnap her as far as she knows. She certainly didn't seem to have any reaction to him being naked in front of her, like even a bit of interest in spite of herself that slipped through.
But we'll see where it goes.
Anyway, I get it makes for drama, but I guess I would prefer the noble Jedi Order that Obi-Won and Yoda represented in the OT, and that Luke aspired to. One of the best moments in the entire saga is "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" in the face of pure evil. That gets undermined to me if the Jedi were, in reality, not the best of society with a noble purpose - it's one thing that they lost in the PT, you can lose but still be on the right side of things - it's another if they are potentially political, corrupt, a problem and so on. I hope they are not going down a road where Osha and Qimir are misunderstood anti-heroes who only tap into their rage and anger because the Jedi aren't much better.
Well, I definitely saw the Jedi in the prequels, and what I've seen of Clone Wars, as guilty of arrogance and foolhardy. I don't think it's all that out of character with what Lucas was saying. Meanwhile, Luke... If you ignore the ST, I felt like he was taking what he learned in a new direction. That he wouldn't be so restrictive about emotions and attachments but more in the middle, and grey. Probably closer to someone like Qui Gon.
Well, I definitely saw the Jedi in the prequels, and what I've seen of Clone Wars, as guilty of arrogance and foolhardy. I don't think it's all that out of character with what Lucas was saying.
Arrogant to some extent, but also caught off guard - and beaten by a very competent foe. They made mistakes and miscalculated but were clearly the side that wasn't killing children or building ultimate weapons to destroy a plant or everything in between. So I think Lucas in the PT was trying to show how their weaknesses were exploited - not trying that those weaknesses were significant moral shortcomings.
The Acolyte may be veering closer to the Jedi being complicit in covering up moral failures for their own benefit - that's a different thing to me than being arrogant. But I suspect that Sol, being the hero, will not be complicit in the end if that is the case.
But what makes Sol 'the hero'? What identifies him as such? I feel like this is Osha, and probably also Mae's, story, and Sol is more of an antagonist for both. I can accept that he and the others responsible for the deaths with the coven are outliers, and the entire Jedi Order isn't awful, but I wouldn't assume they're all morally just etc. whatever the truth is, Sol definitely deceived and manipulated Osha. Yes, Obi Wan did as well and it likely a matter of degree. But I think I'm pretty ready for not all Jedi being definitely good, nor all dark siders being utterly evil.
I get it makes for drama, but I guess I would prefer the noble Jedi Order that Obi-Won and Yoda represented in the OT, and that Luke aspired to.
Yes! I was just saying this same thing to the missus last night and think I even used the same wording.
I felt the same about New Star Trek when Picard season 1 made Starfleet a bunch of a-holes who literally tell Picard to f-off.
I'm just not a big fan of creating drama by taking our benevolent organizations and suddenly turning them shady. To me it seems cheep and easy.
I get that. A friend of mine had the same problem with Rogue One because the Rebellion always equals good guys. I don't think one is right or wrong, but I definitely am into stories where neither side is not wholly one thing. I don't need every Star Wars story to be The Wire, but sometimes... sure!
I also see that the lightsaber whip is now a thing. All I could think of was the 40 year old (underrated) MOTU movie:
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That movie is so terrible, yet I love it.
Guess that also explains why you like this show.
😉 Sorry, couldn't resist.
But what makes Sol 'the hero'? What identifies him as such?... Sol definitely deceived and manipulated Osha.
Fair, we don't know yet - as the story isn't complete - to be definitive about Sol, but so far, he seems to care about people and Osha and Mae and be the good guy who is conflicted about a bad past event. Whether Osha is the lead the way Anakin was the lead or Luke was the lead remains to be seen.
Also, to clarify I am fine with a story about a bad apple in a good bunch, because part of that story usually is that ultimately the good bunch prevails and extricates the bad apple. But again, that's different than the whole bunch is semi-rotten and there are only a few truly good apples - and as the story isn't complete hard to say where they might be going.
To be fair, I am in part reacting to comments I have seen elsewhere that fall into the category of "The Jedi are so wrong to tell the Sith how to use the Force, they just want to be themselves, Qimir is right" like the Jedi are the out-of-touch parents telling their kids not to go to the concert with their friends and are just sooooo mean. Which kind of misses the fact that all the Wars part of Star Wars are due to the Sith manipulating things.
Two things can be true, that maybe the Jedi have gone overboard on their "emotional abstinence" to the point they are pulling kids from their parents and form no attachments at all, but also that Force users who don't limit their emotions may become pulled into the Dark Side like it's a drug addiction/downward spiral that destroys any moral compass. The first has some problems from a human perspective, the second as we have seen can be disastrous for a whole galaxy.
Fair, we don't know yet - as the story isn't complete -
And that's something I always come back to with this show. I know, for some reason, some people who watch this show feel it's a cop-out to say "well, wait 'til the end, maybe that will be addressed", but... that's how stories work. They don't telegraph everything in the opening part then let it play out exactly how you expected. Maybe that's all some want from Star Wars. Either way, let's not forget Mundigate!
But yeah, the story isn't complete and in two weeks we could BOTH be proven very wrong!
so far, (Sol) seems to care about people and Osha and Mae and be the good guy who is conflicted about a bad past event.
Honestly, for me, Sol is kinda hard to get a read on. Yeah he seems conflicted but also things are definitely not always what they seem on this show. I was thinking about the movie Crimes & Misdemeanors where a character is riddled with guilt ONLY when afraid he'll be found out.
I'm not saying that's Sol, necessarily, but it's a concept that popped into my head. Sol was content to train Osha and never bring up the truth of the past, but now that he has no other choice he is conflicted.
And again, that's my thought. I'm not saying that's THE way it is, or even the only read for him.
Whether Osha is the lead the way Anakin was the lead or Luke was the lead remains to be seen.
Of course. I have my guess, which would be closer to Anakin, but like you said, remains to be seen. Well, not just like Anakin but maybe a third option. I do think stifling emotions and foregoing attachment is a mistake, but letting rage and anger control you obviously isn't healthy either. I guess more than "I think this is what will happen", it's 'hope', but maybe Osha (and Qimir with her) will come up with a more balanced third option.
Also, to clarify I am fine with a story about a bad apple in a good bunch, because part of that story usually is that ultimately the good bunch prevails and extricates the bad apple. But again, that's different than the whole bunch is semi-rotten and there are only a few truly good apples - and as the story isn't complete hard to say where they might be going.
I feel like it's more a few bad apples, some of which are in control of the tree, and the soil is rotten. Though it will rot even harder over the next century.
To be fair, I am in part reacting to comments I have seen elsewhere
And also to be fair, I imagine most of us are.
"The Jedi are so wrong to tell the Sith how to use the Force, they just want to be themselves, Qimir is right" like the Jedi are the out-of-touch parents telling their kids not to go to the concert with their friends and are just sooooo mean. Which kind of misses the fact that all the Wars part of Star Wars are due to the Sith manipulating things.
I admit I'm not fully aware of a lot of the EU Sith stories. Obviously Palpatine was a solid, galactic bite in the ass, but I'm still open to stories about Sith who were closer to getting it right. I do think having different types of witches and maybe other groups who use and view the Force in ways that differ from the binary Jedi/Sith approach is fascinating.
If Qimir isn't entirely right, I feel he's at least not entirely wrong. I did note that while he pulled his saber first, the Jedi group all reacted by rushing toward him, presumably to fight/kill him. Which seems kinda un-Jedi in a way, but that was also his point obviously. And I won't pretend he didn't provoke it, but in the end he was defending himself. It was a slaughter, but not in the same way as Anakin sauntering into a room and murdering unarmed children. More like Yojimbo insulting the group of thugs to provoke a fight he has no doubt he'll win.
Two things can be true, that maybe the Jedi have gone overboard on their "emotional abstinence" to the point they are pulling kids from their parents and form no attachments at all, but also that Force users who don't limit their emotions may become pulled into the Dark Side like it's a drug addiction/downward spiral that destroys any moral compass. The first has some problems from a human perspective, the second as we have seen can be disastrous for a whole galaxy.
And a third can be true as well, which again is where I felt Luke was headed after ROTJ. Again, my interpretation. Yes he said "A Jedi, like my father before me", but Anakin was always at his best when not being a conventional Jedi. He latched onto the unconventional parts of Obi-Wan, which likely came from Qui-Gon. So Luke would come by it honestly. But I felt like Luke's journey in ROTJ wasn't embracing the idea that the Jedi had it entirely right and he needed to pick up where they left off. More of an in between. Not abstaining from attachment, but also not being entirely ruled by emotions. (Obviously the sequels and BOBF showed otherwise.) And it's something I'm hoping Osha and Qimir, and maybe Mae as well, are heading toward by the end of this show.
I also see that the lightsaber whip is now a thing. All I could think of was the 40 year old (underrated) MOTU movie:
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I remember when that movie came out, a friend of mine saw it before me and I happened to show him the Art of Star Wars book when he came over. He couldn't get over how much Skeletor's troops and Saurod resembled concept drawings in that book, particularly the Vader stuff.
Side topic - I rewatched Andor this past week - I didn't get fully into it the first time, it works better binging a few episodes in a row I feel. I wish they would focus more on this time period between the PT and OT, as a reminder that stuff happened between Order 66 and Luke and the impact of the evil Empire - that there is a whole organized and building rebellion that opposed the Empire that Luke was able to use as the backbone of defeating the Emperor. I know some folks disliked Obi-Wan but that show and this show really helps to show why the Empire needs to fall, and how the Empire was such a huge monolith getting worse and worse - which actually makes sense, Palpy didn't just announce he was evil. I would love to see (what I am sure would bore most folks) but a story set the first year after the Jedi fall, the purge, etc., from the ground level - what did people think, were the Jedi always something of you heard about but never saw, like Seal Team 6, so their absence wasn't noticed by most? Was Darth Vader a known name?
I am finding that as Mando and Ahsoka start dealing with bigger picture stories that I am less interested in knowing what happened post RotJ. Luke's cameo was just about perfect in Mando. But much like I realized that I was fine believing that all was good post RotJ and I didn't need anything in the ST at all, I am not sure I need a story about Thrawn and zombie stormtroopers or whatever.
Looking forward to next season.
I agree, Andor works really well in three episode bursts. I'd also be happy with more exploration of that era. I mentioned before, but I also feel they should spin Mon Mothma off into her own series. Continue the style and plot of Andor with her post-Rogue One, and also show some of the events of the OT from her perspective. It would also be a nice way to do soft-recasting of the OT main characters to veer away from digital actors.
Another show I'd love them to do, even if it's animated (I know I'm probably the only one with a cartoon bias, but I'm just far more likely to stick with a show when it's live action) is the Task Force 99 show. I know I bring this up at every opportunity, but it would be a great way to show the 'imperial perspective'.
And yeah, I get why they're leading into the ST stuff... they kinda have to. But the closer we get to the ST, the less interested I am. Imperial remnants would have been an interesting plot but Snoke etc... nah.
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