MOTU: Revolution Spoiler Thread

Yeah, spoilers.

I definitely agree about the fight scenes. For a property like this, they always feel like the weakest element. Hordak vs Skeletor should have been a bigger deal but it was a bunch of weird zipping around. Weird zipping around with red blurs. I kept waiting for them to remember that Hordak could transform into things, but when they finally did it wasn't as cool as it should have been.

I didn't have a problem with Shatner. Granted, I was very aware that it was Shatner, because nobody else sounds like him, but something about the smarminess of his delivery fit well with Keldor. And frankly, all I kept thinking was how great he sounds at 90-something years old. He doesn't have the typical "old man voice." But what it boiled down to was that Keldor wasn't interesting. Maybe he didn't have time to be interesting.

And speaking of Keldor, I was expecting them to pull a swerve since I would assume most of MotU fandom knows that Keldor and Skeletor are supposed to be the same guy in most recent canons, but what felt like the BIG REVEAL (if it was intended to be a big reveal) of Keldor really being Skeletor ended up being "Well no shit." I wish they had kept Skeletor as an interdimensional demon guy like his earliest origins. Have him pretend to be Keldor, sure, but not, like, actually him.

Melissa Benoist replacing Sarah Michelle Gellar for Teela was a much better fit.

There was definitely some good stuff in here, just like last time. I liked the stuff with Lyn and Granamyr. Actually, Evil-Lyn's journey to...Good-Lyn? has been the most interesting part of all of this. I liked Orko's increased competence instead of relying on "Captain Floaty fucked up again." I liked the reflective bits with Adam and Cringer. I love that Motherboard is supposedly dead. More like Mother Bored, amirite? Now Brad needs to shoot Kevin in the desert.

Overall I felt the same about it that I did about Revelation. It was an ok way to pass the time, and this outing was far better than Revelation, but it was also simultaneously disappointing and frankly kind of annoying at how many missed opportunities there were for everything about it to be so much better, even if they kept the same basic plot. Or maybe a different plot. I kept getting the same feeling that I did the last time; that it was a MotU cartoon written on a Tuesday by people who read a wiki entry on MotU stuff on a Monday. I feel like I'm being overly critical or negative when I can usually enjoy things a little easier, but I think I'm just not a fan of the creative team involved. I want to be blown away by an awesome MotU cartoon, and this isn't doing it..

Adam giving up the throne felt off to me and is one of my gripes. Overall the show was good IMO, but that decision didn’t make sense. Like how he took Randor’s words to heart as how you can’t be king AND champion at the same time. It has to be one of the other. I’m not as savvy about MOTU history but how does that line of thinking make sense when you had KING GRAYSKULL. Wasn’t that guy both a king and champion? And it almost seemed like Queen Marlena was actually  trying to convince Adam that Randor may have been wrong while they were in jail. 

This show needed like 2 or 3 more episodes to flesh things out more the characters. Especially for Andra. I like Andra, but here we have a young woman who wants to have a bid at being in charge of the kingdom. The same young woman who earlier didn’t bother to check the stuff they were making people ingest and helped everyone get infected. Also what makes her qualified to lead the kingdom?  I’m pretty sure we are supposed to assume she has been doing all this great stuff in between Revelations and Revolutions, but it’s hard to fully accept her creds when we have not really seen anything to warrant her being a leader of that magnitude.  I’m pretty sure a better scene of Keldor convincing Andra would have made me more sympathetic, but lack of time and episodes kinda put a kibosh on that. 

@ibentmyman-thing  I honestly forgot Hordak could transform into things until they gave him a rocket lower body and it felt so weirdly out of place in the moment that I just laughed. I think if I were coming up with more small complaints, Hordak would probably be one. I've never been a fan of Hordak. I'm a ride-or-die Skeletor guy, and I've never liked the idea of there being a BIGGER big bad. That being said, I never really felt like Hordak was much of a threat.
I mean, yeah, Skeletor whipped Hordak's ass so I guess that's good from the perspective of a Skeletor fanboy like me that basically the entire Horde sub-story here only exists to reaffirm Skeletor being scary.

Benoist was a much better Teela, for sure. Really, voice acting is a specific skill. That's why I don't like random actors just being handed voice-over roles because they're not always good at it. In Shatner's case, not only do I not think he's good at it, but I also just did not think his voice fit with Keldor's appearance. It was jarring. But Benoist? Pfft. I wish they'd redub the voices on Revelation with Benoist. She was great.
Keith David is another actor, kind of like Shatner, where I know exactly who I'm hearing the entire time because he's so distinctive. But I do feel he handles it better so it doesn't ruin my immersion or anything.

I actually thought the 'swerve' with Keldor was pretty interesting; not having Skeletor remember that he actually was the guy he was pretending to be and thought was made up? That's a clever way to play with fans who already know who Keldor is. Instead of it being a surprise for the audience, it was a surprise for the character, which is an interesting take on it. That being said, I would have actually preferred Keldor being a lie and Skeletor being an interdimensional being, myself. I've always liked that concept for Skeletor better.

I will definitely say that a lot of this feels more like Smith likes the idea of MOTU generally, but isn't actually a huge MOTU fan himself. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing because MOTU was -created- by people that weren't fans of MOTU. Nothing wrong with different perspectives and ideas being put in by people that aren't married to the source material.
But you do see it in how some stuff is done. Even so, there's something to be said for the fact that even a group of hardcore MOTU fans can't come to a consensus on how a MOTU show should be, so this was never going to make everyone happy even if the hardest of hardcore fans were making it.

The great thing is that this show managed, if nothing else after this, to garner enough interest to convince Netflix to give it three seasons, and we got two seasons of the kids' CGI cartoon. Keeping MOTU in the public eye is great, because maybe the next thing will be that thing some of us have been -really- wanting. Until then, I can rewatch this and enjoy it even if it's not my perfect MOTU cartoon.

@leor  I don't think Adam giving up the throne felt wrong at all. It actually makes tons of sense for a character whose entire televised history for 40 years has been not acting like royalty. It was just the speech that kind of sucked, in my opinion.
Also.. King Grayskull was king of Grayskull -- pre-Eternos. But even if he had been both - maybe he wasn't GOOD at both and that history prompts Randor to have the opinion he does. Or Randor just has a certain opinion. Like conservatives that say you can't be a good mom and a career woman at the same time. It doesn't have to have historical or scientific foundations for people to believe it.

But the point was that it didn't matter what Randor or Marlena tried to instill in Adam. He had to choose. He had to make his own decision about the future of the kingdom, and power, he has been entrusted with. So we can't look at what other characters were trying to tell him and see that as a message from the writers on what Adam should or shouldn't have done.

Also, I don't think the idea was Andra was necessarily trying to be in charge of the entire kingdom. It was only said she was going to run for 'office.' We aren't really left with any idea of what that actually means. We don't even know what kind of government Eternos is going to have. Maybe they're going to do some good ol' US-style democracy and Andra is a puppet Senator backed by the Eternian Arms Commission to make sure every Eternian citizen gets access to laser rifles or some shit. No idea.

Would it have been good to get a little more time with some of these characters? Probably. But I have the feeling a lot of people would have accused the show of being boring, bloated, or again not having enough He-Man in it. So they decided to just focus in more and let you fill in the blanks on the less important stuff.

Sorry, Adam giving up the throne still felt off to me. One can argue that because he doesn’t act like royalty, that he should still ascend the throne. With the power of HeMan and his golden heart of Adam, who better to rule?  Also, with King Grayskull, it can also be argued the other way as well. We don’t know if Grayskull was a bad king. For all we know he was a great King. Since Adam met him in the afterlife, Adam should have come to the conclusion himself of the choice to stay as king and be champion. 

With Andra yeah we don’t know what the capacity of office she is running for. But I’m thinking it’s going to a higher position than Man At Arms. Still would like to see what she is running for. 

And there will always be detractors for any given thing with MOTU. The way Revolutions was going, I think the majority of people would have loved to see more. And this is coming from a guy who was meh on Revelations. 

I’ll just agree to disagree. 

@leor  I'm not saying it can't feel 'off' to you, of course. You're going to react to and interpret a piece of media however it hits you. That's a personal thing.

The idea of 'who better to rule?,' however, is deeply problematic. The show touches on the well-recognized idea that there is no such thing as a 'good' monarchy. The show does this with Keldor. You can have a tremendously kind king like Randor. Sure. But you're not -guaranteed- that. So what do you do when there's a bad monarch? The idea of monarchy is incompatible with ideas like 'just replace the king if he's bad.'
Adam's entire character, in basically all media, is that he cares about others before himself. He genuinely wants to do what is right. He's a champion of Grayskull and that bears out across most media as being a champion of the people. You can't be a champion of the people and place yourself as an absolutist dictator above them just because you believe, or even others believe, that you are best suited to rule them. That idea is anathema to fighting for others.
I like the idea of 'King He-Man.' I really do. And in its own way its defensible from the fantasy position of 'the just king' - like Aragorn or Arthur (or Adam, or surely other dudes whose names start with A). But it's absolutely not the only interpretation of what Adam/He-Man would do when confronted with that reality. And in this particular show, the idea of Adam choosing to rule over others would NEVER have made much sense.

Your point about King Grayskull is... not a point at all? You're mostly just re-stating what I said. Grayskull could have been a bad king. Or a good king. It's not relevant to what Randor believes about whether one should be King of Eternos (which KG never was) and Champion of Grayskull at the same time. One could argue that King Grayskull may rightly only be considered the latter, because we don't really know if there was any political land ties with Castle Grayskull or if 'King' Grayskull was almost more of an empty honorific. But again.. it doesn't matter to what Randor believes, and not even necessarily to what Adam believes.

With Andra - it's totally fine to want to know more. But I'd argue that it's simply not relevant. At least not right now. Certainly not with limited run-time imposed by Netflix. Maybe next season.

I would have loved more Revolution. But I also loved Revelation so.... who am I to say. There is a fine line, though, between 'that was a good show' and 'that was too long and the story meandered too much into stuff that didn't matter.' In 24-26 minute episodes, a 4-5 minute aside that doesn't really impact the actual story can feel very long and disjointed. In either case, it was ultimately a Netflix decision how many episodes they would have, and Netflix decided on a single 5-episode season. Hopefully it does REALLY well and we continue to get more seasons. I'd love to see where they go with this.

Still disagee about Adam ruling over the kingdom not making sense other than Kevin Smith wanted it that way. If you got the skill and ability, you have to take responsibility whether you want to or not. I would certainly think that’s a core value of Adam across all media until now.  With great power and all that. Protect and lead just like Aragorn did. Sure, maybe Adam doesn’t want to, but he has to IMO. This interpretation comes off as shirking his overall duty to me. 

And there’s no guarantee the next leaders are not gonna be corrupt as hell either. Despite democracy. But we at least know Adam. The people know Adam. And like you said with Arthur and Aragorn, there are kind monarchies in fantasy stories. This is something that doesn’t have to be taken out of MOTU because of real world politics and the dangers of the “ruling class”. I actually want to forget that particular issue of the real world and just dive into stories with more than happy endings nowadays and the good guys will be good and do good things at the end. So basically I like stories with good kings and good kingdom endings. Lol. 
 
I think 8 episodes would have been good. More Teela. More Andra. More Duncan. With HeMan.  A little more Evil Lynn too.  It’s why we want more seasons. 5 is short IMO. 

@leor I mean.. I don't know what to tell you. I explained exactly why Adam not taking kingship makes sense in the context of this specific story and how it was written. I guess you could frame that as 'Kevin Smith wanted it that way' - but that's true of literally everything that happened in the entire show, so it's kind of a non-starter response. The show built up very clearly on Adam making the choice he did, and that choice syncs well with Adam from both seasons of this show, 200x, AND Filmation, as well as some of the comics as well. It's not an out-of-nowhere decision.

And it's actually pretty concerning how stuck you are on this idea that kingship is some sacred duty. No one has the 'responsibility' to be a dictator. The idea of monarchy being bad is pretty much as old as the idea of kings, so it's only 'real world politics' as much as having kings at all is 'real world politics.' One could argue that Smith is pushing an Ancient Athenian narrative. Or an Ancient Roman narrative. Or a Medieval Irish narrative. Or a Medieval Italian narrative. The idea that 'being a king and ruling over everyone else is maybe bad' is not modern or even particularly 'political' except in the most basic sense.

I did not say that there's a guarantee that any kind of non-Monarchic system always results in a good leader. The idea is that monarchy is anathema to choice in leadership at all and is not a good way to represent the needs of regular people - something Adam is deeply concerned about in most of his appearances. Adam wouldn't just be thinking 'will I make a good king?' He has to wonder if the next king will be good. And the one after that. Keldor being an excellent object lesson for Adam in how easy it would be for that system to fail.

I did say there's ways to go the other direction and that I've even liked versions of 'King He-Man.' And absolutely you're free to have preferred something else. But to say the decision Adam made in the context of this story 'makes no sense' is simply a bad, inaccurate reading of the material. Doesn't mean you have to -like- it. Don't take it that way at all. But there is an absolute through-line even back to events of Revelation that leads neatly into this decision. That's the definition of 'it makes sense.' You're still totally free to have preferred something different. No doubt.

It is what it is with my way of thinking. Call me wrong, no worries. 

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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I will definitely say that a lot of this feels more like Smith likes the idea of MOTU generally, but isn't actually a huge MOTU fan himself. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing because MOTU was -created- by people that weren't fans of MOTU. Nothing wrong with different perspectives and ideas being put in by people that aren't married to the source material.

I would bet that is the case since he's said before he was too old to be into a lot of the action figure fodder of the early/mid 80s. Seems like Star Wars was the end of his childhood, though as a nerd he was still very aware of Transformers, Masters of the Universe, etc. He just wasn't a fan, but also clearly get still get into minutiae of lore from such properties.

@leor Respectfully - it has nothing to do with your 'way of thinking.' You're just wrong about something. Again, in no way am I saying you have to -like- what was done in the show. But you're factually wrong to suggest something doesn't make sense when it does. Not liking something and something not making sense just.. aren't the same. That's all I'm saying.

@ru1977  Absolutely. The thing I'll say about Smith, from what little I know about him, is that he seems like a reeeeaaal nerd. With absolutely all the disrespect intended, there's a lot of fake nerds out there that have glommed on to this property or that property, but are more interested in a time capsule of their childhood than the nuts and bolts of a fake universe or concept. Smith, I think, is really just INTO nerdy stuff and all these fake worlds we create. And that makes him someone really interesting to experiment with 'growing up' a children's cartoon for a modern audience and their kids. Because he's more interested in playing with the ideas than just doing fan-service (although it's fair to say there's lots of fan service here too, as there should be).

I really like what he's done. Top to bottom I think it was fun to watch and Smith did a few interesting things along the way. I don't love every single moment or costume or whatever, but the overall experience was positive for me. I look forward to seeing more from Smith's MOTU as much as I look forward to more non-Smith MOTU. Lots of room in this property for lots of different interpretations and styles. Hell, Netflix She-Ra MIGHT still be my favorite MOTU thing and that definitely caught me off guard.

Well I still don’t think I’m wrong currently, but I will be open to being wrong. I may have to watch the series again to see your points cause all that may have flew over my head on my first  watch through. Unfortunately, I don’t know if I want to watch Revelations again. I can definitely watch Revolution again at some point. 

@leor  It's absolutely worth noting that I may be picking up on more subtle commentary and foreshadowing because I've watched Revelation three or four times all the way through with my son, and Revolution all the way through twice (only once with my son, so probably three times eventually).

Revolution was a ton of fun. Exciting story and some epic depictions of both magic and technology. I just love Skeletor in this show. 

I liked how Revolution gave some closure to my sad feelings from Revelation. 

I really like this series. Season 1 and 2 were both fantastic IMO. I love how it often plays with scenarios that have been alluded to in the lore, but not as explored as I have seen in the past. 

Might be my favorite He-man series. I really liked the 200X stuff, but I haven't watched it in a looong while. The filmation stuff has not aged that well, but can be some fun. 

I liked how He-mans final look took a lot of influence from the live action movie. Gwildor making an appearance was great too!

I didn't realize Shatner was Keldor, but yeah, not surprising when I think back. I agree he sounds great for a 90 year old. Around christmas I watched the new Indiana Jones with my family and noted that even though they deaged Harrison Ford to be 30, he still sounded 80. Then my grandmother asked if she sounded 80, and I told her I have no idea what she sounded like at 30. . . because I didn't have the heart to tell her that yes, she does have an old lady voice. 

Anyway, the show is great, I have no idea how they're gonna do She-Ra, since I thought that was a whole tangle of rights issues, but maybe they got it figured out. It will be nice to see the siblings finally reunited on screen for the first time in what, 40 years?