Also the one I watched had Choctaw subtitles. Really awesome.
Loki episodes 4 and 5 were pretty great I thought. Very curious how the finale is going to go... if you haven't been watching this, I highly recommend it.
Interesting that OB's shop is the same as the look of his TVA shop. I like the whole story idea of who came up with the ideas for the loom if Timely gets it from the TVA manual, which was given to him under orders of Ms Minutes, which is then shared with OB, creating a paradox.
I am wondering if Loki fixes things so that Victor Timely will be the only person who turned to spaghetti, and if so, maybe that was the origin of the Kangs - the spaghetti gets pulled into the loom, creating Kangs in so many different timelines and eras. What if He Who Remains actually planned this to generate all the Kang variants from Timely, including He Who Remains himself, by allowing this whole thing to play out so that he can create the paradox that creates the TVA?
But I like the idea as well that Loki ends up all-powerful as the God of Stories...
Watching the record store get spaghetti-ed was pretty cool but also oddly disturbing, as was watching the rest of the heroes go as well.
A lot needs to be cleared up in the finale, are those who get pruned by the stick in the pocket area of He Who Remains again, so that one Loki and Renslayer are there now?
I'm trying to catch up!!!!
Catch-up faster, damn it!
Seriously, if they can stick the landing, might become my favorite D+ MCU show/series.
@fac I'm gonna! This weekend. Maybe even tonight!
What's your current favorite?
I go back to WandaVision as being the most engaging to me, holding my interest week to week as each episode came out. Despite my frustration with some of the choices in the finale (Hayward shooting at the kids made him a mustache-twirling villain; Monica as the audience proxy excusing Wanda's actions - undermined the complex emotions they had set up for Wanda and the horror of the citizens she controlled), probably still the top in terms of creativity.
Loki season 1 was a close second, but this season is putting it over the top when I view it as a full series.
Hawkeye is in the mix, as both Steinfeld and Pugh were great in it, and Hawkeye's arc is pretty good overall.
Yeah, I agree on WandaVision. It was really something for most of it. But Loki and She-Hulk were the real standouts to me, and I do agree about Steinfeld and especially Pugh being great in Hawkeye. Hawkeye was real middle of the road for me. Kinda fun, not bad at all. And I know Echo didn't do a lot for most people but I really enjoyed her character. But I dunno... I apparently liked Moon Knight more than most, Ms Marvel as well. I just finally had it with Secret Invasion, heh.
I only have two more Loki's to go... I'm gonna make it.
Honestly, I feel that none of the shows have been bad, at worst a few have been kind of boring, not fully baked, and kind of flawed. So not bad as in unwatchable, just not memorable.
I think the weakest were Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Secret Invasion. Falcon and the Winter Soldier needs a "director's cut" that reinstates the virus storyline and fixes the continuity/editing problems as I am convinced they moved things around a bit to adjust for that. Secret Invasion I liked more than most but it made me realize that Fury was never really a character but a narrative device in the MCU, so while I liked learning more about him, I never was invested in his story - Talos story was more interesting, and I dislike in retrospect that they didn't solve the Skrull issue during the show and killed off Talos and Maria in a show that didn't earn it.
Moon Knight and She-Hulk were clever but they seem fairly disconnected from the MCU for now - that's not a bad thing as She-Hulk was clearly trying to do its own thing. I am not sure where Moon Knight fits in, the whole "horror" side is one of those not fully baked things.
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but Marvel is going to make a huge mistake if they don't have an all young women Avengers team - Steinfeld, Pugh, Vellani and Maslany all have charisma to spare and if they could go with a Keith Giffen late 80's JLA style of kind of low-key comedy as their various personalities clash but have it turn serious, that would be awesome. Add in Shuri and Iron Heart and America Chavez and Cassie - forget bringing back Downey et al, those eight are your new team. Cast someone as Spider-Gwen... This isn't because I think they need an all-female team (like they kind-of did for the one sequence during Endgame, which seemed a little forced to me), but those main four are their most interesting actors.
Honestly, I feel that none of the shows have been bad, at worst a few have been kind of boring, not fully baked, and kind of flawed. So not bad as in unwatchable, just not memorable.
First off, thank you for giving me so much to chew on. Secondly, umm... I mostly agree with that. I think I've said before, but I probably put too much emphasis on rewatchability when judging whether or not I feel a show or movie is good. And a lot of the MCU shows haven't been rewatchable for me (She Hulk, Loki, WandaVision... i think those are the standouts, but I did rewatch some Echo and Yelena stuff from Hawkeye), with only one show that I couldn't finish. I've said this before too, but I feel like Secret Invasion was written by people who have seen thrillers before but hadn't worked out what makes one compelling or the mechanics of the genre. I can deal with characters you don't get to know that well, and mysterious motivations, but there wasn't actually a lot of mystery as much as characters no knowing what others characters were up to while the audience knew way too much about what they were up to.
And it pains me to say that. I've been enthusiastically chomping at the bit for every MCU release after Iron Man, and still hope they right the ship. Really really do. And I know it's perfectly fine for creatives to have some misfires. Lord knows I haven't loved every single film by my favorite directors of all time. There is one Scorsese movie I'll likely never even try to watch. But still, even Love & Thunder was at least entertaining, mostly. I enjoyed more of Quantumania than I didn't. Falcon & Winter Soldier had some solid character moments, and not just between the title characters. I was certainly down for their social commentaries, even the more on-the-nose stuff, and would have been into even more of that. I didn't need Isaiah Bradley to become a main focal point, but I really felt more light could have been shined on that character.
I think the weakest were Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Secret Invasion. Falcon and the Winter Soldier needs a "director's cut" that reinstates the virus storyline and fixes the continuity/editing problems as I am convinced they moved things around a bit to adjust for that.
I definitely agree they were the weakest. And even as I was watching it, it was really clear that F&WS suffered in the editing room. You idea for the virus plot would be extremely interesting and I'd love if they let us watch it.
Secret Invasion I liked more than most but it made me realize that Fury was never really a character but a narrative device in the MCU, so while I liked learning more about him, I never was invested in his story
And that's fair about Fury being more of a plot device, but in Avengers they gave him some more character at least. Him tricking them by removing Coulson's trading cards from his locker and rubbing blood on them before dramatically tossing them on the table, or him charging out to disable one of his own planes with an RPG, then pulling his sidearm when he sees a second plane even though it wouldn't do any good, but he still had that reflex... these are some definite windows into who Fury is. Winter Soldier had some great ones too, and not just the ambush. His story about his grandfather is one of my favorite scenes in the movie, and I've said this before too but the scene with him and Talos on the train in SI (which I am guessing was meant to harken back to him in the elevator about his grandfather) was my favorite scene of the show. Captain Marvel had some little character bits too beyond riding on the actor's charisma.
So I think, yes, Fury was just a plot device most of the time, but some writers were able to give him character beyond that and it was beautiful. And I do think they tried to do some of that here. They gave him some little moments like with Hill's family, or his wife I guess. I didn't finish the show so I can't speak too intelligently about it.
And not being able to finish Secret Invasion really pains me because I'm such a fan of Samuel L Jackson. I've loved him since Loaded Weapon 1. And I know it's a stupid movie to inspire devotion for an actor but he was brilliant and hilarious in it! (I had seen Do The Right Thing before that but I admit he wasn't as prominent or memorable for me there.)
- Talos story was more interesting, and I dislike in retrospect that they didn't solve the Skrull issue during the show and killed off Talos and Maria in a show that didn't earn it.
Right? Earning things like that is so underrated in modern shows/movies. There's a lot of 'this happens, then this happens, which leads them to here where they find the thing and one of them has to die here', and like you said, it's half baked. The beats are there but man, so many of these projects really feel like they need at least one more draft. And according to that Variety article a few days ago, that is entirely the case with the producers relying entirely on fixing everything in editing. And I'm sorry, I know I'm entirely biased here, but... NO! Take all the time you need on the damned script!
Moon Knight and She-Hulk were clever but they seem fairly disconnected from the MCU for now - that's not a bad thing as She-Hulk was clearly trying to do its own thing. I am not sure where Moon Knight fits in, the whole "horror" side is one of those not fully baked things.
And I think when She-Hulk was airing, I was 100% ready for something disconnected. References, sure, but no one really had to stop and think 'wait... okay, that happened in that one movie, so the character is now in this place, so.. okay, yeah, unpause'. You could just sit and laugh, or seethe for some in the audience, at the goofy green lady and her supporting cast. It was sorta like when Homecoming came out and it was essentially a kid stopping a bad guy from stealing stuff. It was refreshing to not have a world ending event with a blue beam into the sky for once.
And Moon Knight, I dunno... I really enjoyed it more than most I guess. It was weird and full of good performances. I appreciated what they were going for with the mental disability, and I loved Tawaret more than I loved Madisynn.
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but Marvel is going to make a huge mistake if they don't have an all young women Avengers team - Steinfeld, Pugh, Vellani and Maslany all have charisma to spare
I absolutely agree.
and if they could go with a Keith Giffen late 80's JLA style of kind of low-key comedy as their various personalities clash but have it turn serious, that would be awesome.
I hope you don't mind, but we are now best friends. That style of Justice League was the very first thing I thought of when Gunn took over the DC movies. Having Batman constantly angry with a bunch of misfits and malcontents is gold begging to be mined, but I have no problem with Marvel getting there first.
Add in Shuri and Iron Heart and America Chavez and Cassie - forget bringing back Downey et al, those eight are your new team.
And the time for bringing back Downey etc is Secret Wars. It will make sense, it will be grand, yeah do it there. It would REALLY be awesome to have even just one movie letting all these characters shine together before that though.
Cast someone as Spider-Gwen... This isn't because I think they need an all-female team (like they kind-of did for the one sequence during Endgame, which seemed a little forced to me), but those main four are their most interesting actors.
Spider-Gwen is high on my list. As long as we're naming ladies, I really want Black Cat and Ava Ayala White Tiger to show up on screen as well. And yeah, that... I dunno. That lady gathering definitely felt forced and inorganic, but what really tipped it for me was Peter showing disbelief that the woman who just flew through a gigantic space cruiser, twice, is gonna have difficult getting past a crowd of people on foot. Don't worry, she has a group of people gathered behind her, half of whom are gonna immediately veer to the side off camera. Just... a weird choice. And I am not even sure how to make that scene better. Either lean in harder with the female characters seeing other ladies needing a hand so we're having solidarity (those guys in the audience are groaning already, so just go for it), or pull back some and not be so on the nose? I honestly don't know.
Having essentially A Force I guess could make up for that. And I could definitely see characters like Kate Bishop and Kamala actively recruiting Yelena, Riri, and Jennifer Walters. I'm totally down for Thunderbolts and all the rumors and casting I've heard about it so far, BUT the idea of those characters we've named teaming up is more exciting to me.
I think I've said before, but I probably put too much emphasis on rewatchability when judging whether or not I feel a show or movie is good.
Few things are rewatchable for me unless it is a few years down the road from when I last saw it. So none of the D+ stuff is old enough, although now that they are putting some things out on blu-ray, I will likely watch Loki and WandaVision a second time soon.
But still, even Love & Thunder was at least entertaining, mostly. I enjoyed more of Quantumania than I didn't. Falcon & Winter Soldier had some solid character moments, and not just between the title characters. I was certainly down for their social commentaries, even the more on-the-nose stuff, and would have been into even more of that. I didn't need Isaiah Bradley to become a main focal point, but I really felt more light could have been shined on that character.
I have been more disappointed by the films than the shows I think.
Love & Thunder had a good first 20 minutes and a good final 20 minutes, and I generally felt for Jane. But it also had a few missteps like Zeus (how that could have played out was when he told Thor he was scaring folks, that it was clearer he was scared but was putting on a brave face and wasn't just an idiot) and Gorr scaring the kids (even though he was a villain, since his objection was the loss of his daughter, that he even took the kids was a mistake I thought...)
F&WS social commentary for me just didn't work at times. Sam would have been one of the most famous people in the world, revered even, so "I can't get you a loan for your boat" was just silly to me. If it had been his sister couldn't get the loan on her own, but they suddenly had the funds when he walked in and connected the dots - that I would have believed, and would have said more about things, than how they did it. Maybe Bradley was right America wouldn't accept a black man as Cap, and it might have added some nuance if Sam was accepted because he was already a hero so his race no longer mattered. Maybe lean into the optics of Hoskins being another black sidekick to the white Cap even though Walker and Hoskins were true friends. I disliked that Sam and Bucky were down on Walker as Cap immediately - I would have been fine if they gave him a chance and then disliked him due to his actions as the show went on, or maybe that the public never liked Walker and saw him as a fraud so he was in a tough position and couldn't win, or whatever. But it just played out too much like our heroes hate Walker for taking the job and it turns out he was a jerk so that was OK. And Hoskins was a plot device for Walker to lose it.
Having said all that, F&WS might have worked better as a film if tightened up some. I think they have maybe made films which should have been shows and shows that should have been films - Eternals I think would have worked better as a show, spend a few episodes with them impacting humanity and fighting the Deviants, then have them lose the need to do so, have their falling out and go their separate ways for a few episodes where they have their own lives - some happy, some not - then reconvene with the questioning of what to do next, allow the emergence or not - its actually a better setup for TV then the flashbacks and us trying to figure out their dynamics and motivations. Shang-Chi might have been better as show, give the Mandarin character a chance to breathe and work more on the family dynamics at play. Hawkeye could have been a film, and Secret Invasion could have been if done well.
So I think, yes, Fury was just a plot device most of the time, but some writers were able to give him character beyond that and it was beautiful. And I do think they tried to do some of that here. They gave him some little moments like with Hill's family, or his wife I guess. I didn't finish the show so I can't speak too intelligently about it.
They never fully got there, and his wife plotline got confused in trying to make us guess if she really cared for him, or if he even know she was a Skrull (for a bit). And I still don't know why they killed Talos wife off-screen.
Try to finish it, it isn't that terrible.
The beats are there but man, so many of these projects really feel like they need at least one more draft.
How I felt about a lot of Legends figures this last 18 months, I think the pandemic made everything just a bit less typical and so many things seemed just not as focused and polished as they ought to have been in a lot of places.
And I think when She-Hulk was airing, I was 100% ready for something disconnected. References, sure, but no one really had to stop and think 'wait... okay, that happened in that one movie, so the character is now in this place, so.. okay, yeah, unpause'. You could just sit and laugh, or seethe for some in the audience, at the goofy green lady and her supporting cast. It was sorta like when Homecoming came out and it was essentially a kid stopping a bad guy from stealing stuff. It was refreshing to not have a world ending event with a blue beam into the sky for once.
And Moon Knight, I dunno... I really enjoyed it more than most I guess. It was weird and full of good performances. I appreciated what they were going for with the mental disability, and I loved Tawaret more than I loved Madisynn.
I also liked that about She-Hulk, and I also will always like it when Spidey is just trying to make NYC a better place from nutjobs, sort of like Batman, and not dealing with the end of the world.
I think what bugged me about Moon Knight was that I didn't really like the Steven Grant character as the entry to Moon Knight - he sort of annoyed me - but I did like the last two episodes. Maybe I do need to watch that one again.
Having Batman constantly angry with a bunch of misfits and malcontents is gold begging to be mined, but I have no problem with Marvel getting there first.
Yelena in the no-nonsense Batman role, with Kate, Kamala and Jen all kind of enjoying being a hero too much in different ways, is my thinking.
That lady gathering definitely felt forced and inorganic, but what really tipped it for me was Peter showing disbelief that the woman who just flew through a gigantic space cruiser, twice, is gonna have difficult getting past a crowd of people on foot. Don't worry, she has a group of people gathered behind her, half of whom are gonna immediately veer to the side off camera. Just... a weird choice.
There is an article where the writers said they went back and forth between it being great and being pandering, and they settled on great. I wouldn't call it pandering per se but I felt characters like Pepper as Rescue, Mantis, Shuri and Wasp seem out of their depth - if it had been Capt Marvel, Gamora, Nebula, Wanda, and Valkyrie only as the truly powerful folks...? I don't know. It just didn't seem organic as you said, and therefore it took me out of the scene just a bit. One thing that Whedon did was have his "hero" shots of the Avengers occur more at the start of the action, both the circle shot in Avengers and the attacking Hydra base side shot in Ultron. They worked then because it wasn't mid-crisis as much and it moved on quickly. This seemed like a splash page/breather when one wasn't needed.
Few things are rewatchable for me unless it is a few years down the road from when I last saw it. So none of the D+ stuff is old enough, although now that they are putting some things out on blu-ray, I will likely watch Loki and WandaVision a second time soon.
Yeah, I get that's kinda specific to me. But when I enjoy something, I really wanna dwell on it, which means multiple viewings. When I was a kid, I wore out a bootleg vhs copy of Empire Strikes Back because I watched it so many times. When they finally did price-to-own vhs, it was an all new world heh.
But most of the first three phases of the MCU, I've watched them so many times. Not necessarily always intently, but I'd throw on Avengers while cleaning the house or something, you know?
I have been more disappointed by the films than the shows I think.
I can see that, yeah. Really examining the filmography, there are a few real standouts with the films where they could have been better (and something I'd wanna watch again), while the shows have a lot of okay moments but I probably wouldn't watch again even if they were better I guess.
Love & Thunder had a good first 20 minutes and a good final 20 minutes, and I generally felt for Jane. But it also had a few missteps like Zeus (how that could have played out was when he told Thor he was scaring folks, that it was clearer he was scared but was putting on a brave face and wasn't just an idiot) and Gorr scaring the kids (even though he was a villain, since his objection was the loss of his daughter, that he even took the kids was a mistake I thought...)
Yeah, I agree with that. The beginning and end were the best parts. I was genuinely moved by some of those scenes, and the opening act was solid. And that's a typical problem, having your second act be weak. but that says so much about the story because the second act is THE story for movies. Anyone can come up with a great opening and a great ending, but getting there, the journey, is the fun part. It's the exciting part, or the emotional part. Where you get to know the characters and watch them grow and fail etc.
F&WS social commentary for me just didn't work at times. Sam would have been one of the most famous people in the world, revered even, so "I can't get you a loan for your boat" was just silly to me. If it had been his sister couldn't get the loan on her own, but they suddenly had the funds when he walked in and connected the dots - that I would have believed, and would have said more about things, than how they did it. Maybe Bradley was right America wouldn't accept a black man as Cap, and it might have added some nuance if Sam was accepted because he was already a hero so his race no longer mattered. Maybe lean into the optics of Hoskins being another black sidekick to the white Cap even though Walker and Hoskins were true friends. I disliked that Sam and Bucky were down on Walker as Cap immediately - I would have been fine if they gave him a chance and then disliked him due to his actions as the show went on, or maybe that the public never liked Walker and saw him as a fraud so he was in a tough position and couldn't win, or whatever. But it just played out too much like our heroes hate Walker for taking the job and it turns out he was a jerk so that was OK. And Hoskins was a plot device for Walker to lose it.
I completely agree about the boat loan thing. It's always weird in a sequel or a followup where something extraordinary happened to a character but hasn't impacted their day to day life when it really should have. And I don't mean in a story where the first movie was a secret adventure, I mean something like where most of the world should be utterly aware of what he went through and did.
I like a lot of what you're saying, and going more into Bradley's experience and contrasting that against Sam's AND Hoskins is a great take. And Walker definitely had/has so much story potential.
Having said all that, F&WS might have worked better as a film if tightened up some. I think they have maybe made films which should have been shows and shows that should have been films - Eternals I think would have worked better as a show, spend a few episodes with them impacting humanity and fighting the Deviants, then have them lose the need to do so, have their falling out and go their separate ways for a few episodes where they have their own lives - some happy, some not - then reconvene with the questioning of what to do next, allow the emergence or not - its actually a better setup for TV then the flashbacks and us trying to figure out their dynamics and motivations. Shang-Chi might have been better as show, give the Mandarin character a chance to breathe and work more on the family dynamics at play. Hawkeye could have been a film, and Secret Invasion could have been if done well.
Well... I kinda agree with all of that. As much as I really did enjoy Eternals, letting a lot of that breathe more, AND spend more time exploring those characters in different eras would have only made it better.
Shang Chi... I was happy with as is, but I could definitely see how that would improve it. Hawkeye, SI, and F&WS, yeah.... having them be films would have really been a better choice. And in some ways, especially Hawkeye, they could have been lower budget (for Marvel anyway) films, which I honestly think is something they need to consider. If everything you put out needs to gross a billion to be profitable, yeah eventually it's gonna crumble. All studios need to have more variety in their releases than just blockbuster after blockbuster, even in the superhero genre.
They never fully got there, and his wife plotline got confused in trying to make us guess if she really cared for him, or if he even know she was a Skrull (for a bit). And I still don't know why they killed Talos wife off-screen.
Try to finish it, it isn't that terrible.
Eh... maybe one day. I dunno. I couldn't muster any enthusiasm for that show at all after the first couple episodes.
Also, I have now caught up on Loki! I can finally go back and read your spoilered post.
How I felt about a lot of Legends figures this last 18 months, I think the pandemic made everything just a bit less typical and so many things seemed just not as focused and polished as they ought to have been in a lot of places.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me why that's so rampant but certainly seems to be the case.
I also liked that about She-Hulk, and I also will always like it when Spidey is just trying to make NYC a better place from nutjobs, sort of like Batman, and not dealing with the end of the world.
I think what bugged me about Moon Knight was that I didn't really like the Steven Grant character as the entry to Moon Knight - he sort of annoyed me - but I did like the last two episodes. Maybe I do need to watch that one again.
I probably should watch it again too. Sometimes things are a lot better once you know how it plays out. It's one reason I love the horror movies I name as favorites because the more I watch, the more I can appreciate what they did. Not that Moon Knight is horror, but knowing the plot will probably make it easier to notice other aspects on a second watch.
Yelena in the no-nonsense Batman role, with Kate, Kamala and Jen all kind of enjoying being a hero too much in different ways, is my thinking.
Yep. I couldn't really think who Batman would be but you nailed it.
There is an article where the writers said they went back and forth between it being great and being pandering, and they settled on great. I wouldn't call it pandering per se but I felt characters like Pepper as Rescue, Mantis, Shuri and Wasp seem out of their depth - if it had been Capt Marvel, Gamora, Nebula, Wanda, and Valkyrie only as the truly powerful folks...? I don't know. It just didn't seem organic as you said, and therefore it took me out of the scene just a bit. One thing that Whedon did was have his "hero" shots of the Avengers occur more at the start of the action, both the circle shot in Avengers and the attacking Hydra base side shot in Ultron. They worked then because it wasn't mid-crisis as much and it moved on quickly. This seemed like a splash page/breather when one wasn't needed.
Yeah, I don't know if it's pandering either. It's clumsy at least.
And true on most of that, including the splash page shots. But one other thing he did in Avengers was the tracking shot that followed (if I remember correctly) Widow to Iron Man to Hawkeye back to Iron Man to Cap back to Iron Man then settling on Thor and Hulk, ending with them crashing into Grand Central. I don't know if that qualifies as a 'hero' shot like you mean, as it's certainly not as obvious as the other things we've mentioned. but it's sorta following the heroes as they seem to feel like they're getting a handle on the battle. But it's before they're on the verge of getting overwhelmed and also the nuke getting launched.
With Endgame, it seems like a great example of 'we'll find it in the editing room', since they apparently shot a LOT of stuff never used, like lots of back and forth in the trenches etc, quipping etc. And only some of that made it in, like Hope and Scott telling Cap they'll get the van, Valkyrie saying "you're not gonna like where it's parked", etc. But it's a lot of moments that I imagine they edited in all sorts of order to find the rhythm, and most of it, admittedly, works.
I can see that, yeah. Really examining the filmography, there are a few real standouts with the films where they could have been better (and something I'd wanna watch again), while the shows have a lot of okay moments but I probably wouldn't watch again even if they were better I guess.
The overall MCU has been pretty impressive and enjoyable, just seeing all of the characters done well and leading to the team-up films in the first three phases was the dream I always had for Marvel on film. I think some of my "fatigue", if it is that, is that properties like Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, the Eternals were never part of those dreams.
It's always weird in a sequel or a followup where something extraordinary happened to a character but hasn't impacted their day to day life when it really should have. And I don't mean in a story where the first movie was a secret adventure, I mean something like where most of the world should be utterly aware of what he went through and did.
I'm possibly alone in this, but I think the aftermath of hero-worship would make for a great TV show - the adulation and then the pressure on the heroes to be heroic (for some, while others love the spotlight and milk it) - I always thought a fascinating superhero story would be the population turning on the hero for not saving everyone - Why weren't you there when X happened, what were you doing instead? Some fan jumping off a building hoping a hero would save them...? It would be dark but the pressure on a real Superman would be intense to be everywhere, solve every problem...and they couldn't be everywhere of course.
Shang Chi... I was happy with as is, but I could definitely see how that would improve it.
The more I thought about it, the more I disliked that Shang-Chi went sent fantasy/sci-fi. The Ten Rings organization seemed potentially terrifying in IM 1, wish they had kept it gritty, with the real Mandarin being someone who wanted to see the world burn, or be a despot, or whatever - not the typical ruthless mafia type living in opulence. That after the Ten Rings were trying build bombs in Afghanistan or somewhere and were potentially a terrorist group, we end with a plot around flying dragons and people shooting arrows at it.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me why that's so rampant but certainly seems to be the case.
I left my long-term company near the start of it, but even near the beginning, dealing with the fallout created a lot of one-time issues, plus keeping people focused working remotely, or even people missing time due to illness - I think things that would have gotten three looks got two, or one, so things lacked refinement/incremental improvement that you get from people interacting in person more, or not having other things on their mind...
And true on most of that, including the splash page shots. But one other thing he did in Avengers was the tracking shot that followed (if I remember correctly) Widow to Iron Man to Hawkeye back to Iron Man to Cap back to Iron Man then settling on Thor and Hulk, ending with them crashing into Grand Central. I don't know if that qualifies as a 'hero' shot like you mean, as it's certainly not as obvious as the other things we've mentioned. but it's sorta following the heroes as they seem to feel like they're getting a handle on the battle. But it's before they're on the verge of getting overwhelmed and also the nuke getting launched.
Yes, that felt natural, not that somehow all the female heroes happened to notice what has going on one small part of the battlefield and had nothing else to do but fly over and chat.
Interesting that Echo will be TV-MA. Not sure what to think about that - I like that the MCU is more or less accessible for kids 10 and up, depending on their maturity level. If these were not interconnected it wouldn't matter as much, but if some 12-year-old girl liked Echo from Hawkeye, what do you do as the parent? I am wondering if this is why it is being released all at once so that they can make sure the content is fully known before people start to watch - it if it was a week at a time, and whatever requires the TV-MA doesn't happen for a bit, it might catch people off guard.
The overall MCU has been pretty impressive and enjoyable, just seeing all of the characters done well and leading to the team-up films in the first three phases was the dream I always had for Marvel on film. I think some of my "fatigue", if it is that, is that properties like Shang-Chi, Moon Knight, the Eternals were never part of those dreams.
And I get that. That's kinda how I feel with Blade. I found the first two enjoyable and the third was pretty okay, with a few definite bright moments, but I was never huge on the character in the first place, so a new version of him (even with such an incredible actor) never got me all that excited. That may be the closest for me, as I've been more open to characters I'm unfamiliar with (the ones you named above were all on that list, along with the GOTG). So I guess I'm more excited to see what they'll do with characters I really love (the entire roster of the all new, all different X-Men) and open to characters I don't know.
But the first thing you said about the MCU being impressive and enjoyable overall really made me realize... that's true. And I'm certainly slipping into an entitled attitude of 'make everything the way I think it should be'. It's still a monumental feat they've pulled off, and are still pulling off even if some course correction is happening.
I'm possibly alone in this, but I think the aftermath of hero-worship would make for a great TV show - the adulation and then the pressure on the heroes to be heroic (for some, while others love the spotlight and milk it) - I always thought a fascinating superhero story would be the population turning on the hero for not saving everyone - Why weren't you there when X happened, what were you doing instead? Some fan jumping off a building hoping a hero would save them...? It would be dark but the pressure on a real Superman would be intense to be everywhere, solve every problem...and they couldn't be everywhere of course.
And in an atmosphere where they're going 2-4 movies and as many shows each year, that absolutely SHOULD be one of the plots they explore. It's certainly time to deconstruct the genre a few ways with Marvel. Even if they only do 1-2 movies a year, that plot, if done well, would be a major standout.
The more I thought about it, the more I disliked that Shang-Chi went sent fantasy/sci-fi. The Ten Rings organization seemed potentially terrifying in IM 1, wish they had kept it gritty, with the real Mandarin being someone who wanted to see the world burn, or be a despot, or whatever - not the typical ruthless mafia type living in opulence. That after the Ten Rings were trying build bombs in Afghanistan or somewhere and were potentially a terrorist group, we end with a plot around flying dragons and people shooting arrows at it.
Yeah, it didn't totally gel, I can see that point.
I left my long-term company near the start of it, but even near the beginning, dealing with the fallout created a lot of one-time issues, plus keeping people focused working remotely, or even people missing time due to illness - I think things that would have gotten three looks got two, or one, so things lacked refinement/incremental improvement that you get from people interacting in person more, or not having other things on their mind...
Right... thank you, that definitely makes sense.
Yes, that felt natural, not that somehow all the female heroes happened to notice what has going on one small part of the battlefield and had nothing else to do but fly over and chat.
Definitely. Maybe even a long tracking shot that highlighted the ladies like the one Whedon did in 2012 would have been more subtle.
Interesting that Echo will be TV-MA. Not sure what to think about that - I like that the MCU is more or less accessible for kids 10 and up, depending on their maturity level. If these were not interconnected it wouldn't matter as much, but if some 12-year-old girl liked Echo from Hawkeye, what do you do as the parent? I am wondering if this is why it is being released all at once so that they can make sure the content is fully known before people start to watch - it if it was a week at a time, and whatever requires the TV-MA doesn't happen for a bit, it might catch people off guard.
That's a good point that I hadn't considered, probably because the only kid in my house who still watches MCU stuff is my son and he's old enough for it. They probably feel younger kids still have Spider-Man and Ms Marvel, but I would imagine young Indigenous kids would love something geared toward them as much as anyone else.
And REALLY good take on the all-at-once method. I don't think I've seen anyone else suggest that as a reason.
One thing I read about the plot of Echo:
They were saying some popular villains grow to become heroes, ala Loki, but that Echo won't necessarily do that. I find that REALLY interesting too, but I take it more like she'll be more on the side of the angels but a very troubled antihero. Probably make Matt look like Peter Parker.
Seems like they're taking Blade in the right direction with an R rating. I think, perhaps, the MCU will be back on the right track soon enough.
Hopefully. I've seen plenty of bad movies with R ratings too though.
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