Your Home for Toy News and Action Figure Discussion!

Forum

Marvel Cinematic Un...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Marvel Cinematic Universe News & Discussion

Page 59 / 69

Fletch
(@fletch)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 739
 

I guess there was no way the final two episodes could live up to how great the Tarot episode was. Still, I found both episodes on the wrong side of a mixed bag. 

Like, the entire Keyser Soze reveal at the end was so good.  I also think the secret origin of the Witch's Road was great, even though I did not need Nicky's entire life story to build up to it.  Meanwhile, I found the resolution to Jen's challenge was really abrupt and unearned. And then Billy's quest just kind of got punted to the next show or movie. 

It also turns out that I don't like Aubrey Plaza's acting. I just realized watching this that it's the first thing I've seen her act in. She seems really charming in interviews so I assumed I'd like her, but by episode 8 I realized I really wasn't. Who knew? Considering how really uninterested I was in her character's role here, it makes the absolute waste of the Salem Seven even more of a disappointment. 

On the other hand, boy was I impressed with Joe Locke. He absolutely carried these final two episodes. I hope he submits his "am I killing this boy!?!" scene to the Academy. 


   
fac reacted
ReplyQuote
Fletch
(@fletch)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 739
 

I'm so glad the MCU is adopting Charlie Cox's Daredevil. It was such an absolutely perfect show. The tone, the look, the action, the acting. Perfection. And if they want to pretend the rest of Defenders never happened in this universe, I'm fine with that too.


   
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

Posted by: @fletch

Meanwhile, I found the resolution to Jen's challenge was really abrupt and unearned.

I think that was the Green Witch challenge and I suppose you had to grow something in a sterile environment, which Agatha was able to do as they had no Green Witch. Jen more or less escaped once she was unbound. 

Spoiler
Some notes

Although not overtly stated, I think the fact that Nicolas derailed the attempt for Agatha to steal the power from the last batch of witches is why time ran out for him... 

I thought more Time Bandits than Keyser Sose in the reveal of the room having things we had just seen in the real world.

I liked the callback to the debate if the song was Coven Two or Coven True and why it was Coven Two. 

I wasn't sure Agatha's motivations were clear at the end exactly in terms of deciding to spare Billy and sacrifice herself, but do wonder if the result of Agatha not seeing Death again is why she is in ghost form.

Not sure I believe Lillia is dead, she should not have been able to see the moment she told Agatha about as she could only, as far as we know, jump about her own timeline.

 

 


   
ReplyQuote
(@darkxorn)
Fwoosh!!!
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 341
 

Loved the final two episodes, but it definitely took time to sit with, and to realize just how complex they weaved the plot and storylines throughout the whole season.  If it's looked at on a surface level it is entertaining, sure, but the writing was so intricate and clever, boosted by the fantastic acting. It gave us the big bang expected finale clash at the end of episode 8, then 9 really puts the whole series into context , and hits hard with the emotion. Finally concluding with what any good MCU project should do, promising more to come.


   
fac and CTV reacted
ReplyQuote
(@schizm)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 1344
 

It also:

Spoiler
Spoiler
neuters the main villain in a fantastic way for future appearances. Agatha is a murderer hundreds of times over and unrepentant. But now that she's dead she can't kill anymore and is now the sassy sidekick. She's not powerless, but she can be the fun, reformed side character for future appearances. Like Spike or Angel on Buffy (LOVED seeing that poster on his wall). It's a very interesting place to put a charismatic actor you don't want to fully lose in your universe. The wig and the effect needs some work but I really don't hate this. It's satisfying in this story yet leaves the door open for future stories. Something Marvel has really struggled with lately.

Restoring Jen was absolutely rushed. I'm so glad Sasheer got such a good part and played it so well but Agatha being responsible for her binding came outta nowhere - that's not what Agatha does, she just takes and kills. She doesn't toy with her food. I am glad she's back out in the MCU.

I also appreciated the grace note of revisiting Alice's death. Showing Death doing her thing and Alice having that moment of acceptance was actually quite beautiful and powerful.

I do think not showing us Tommy even a little was a little lame. That was unsatisfying and I could have done with ten less minutes of Nicholas if we had gotten a taste of what's actually coming. I was pausing the finale every ten minutes to make sure we still had enough show left to wrap up well. Also, this is such a convoluted way to get Wiccan into the MCU. Wanda could have just been successful in MoM in finding alt universe versions of them - and I like that this retroactively makes her slightly less psychotic because her sons really were out there - but still super convoluted.


   
fac reacted
ReplyQuote
(@darkxorn)
Fwoosh!!!
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 341
 

Spoiler
.
Someone pointed out that during Agatha's confrontation with death, all of the coven's gfts were used. I didn't notice them all but it being highlighted really shows how well this show was made.

Agatha tried to create a circle of protection from "evil", Alice's move from episode 4. She tried to heal herself with water from a hose in moonlight, from Jennifer. Lillia's "hit the deck" prophecy helped save her. And when she died, the original Green Witch, Rio, transformed her body to be one with nature. Gather Witches fire, water, earth and air indeed!


   
fac reacted
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

@schizm

Spoiler
RE Jen

Agatha mentioned she sold the binding spell to the person who bound Jen - basically the person who bound Jen was a proxy for Agatha, which is why Agatha was the person Jen needed to unbind her, and Jen never understood how the person had the power to bind her in the first place. Agatha was like a mercenary - not only did she kill witches for their power, she then apparently sold her skills regardless of the cost.

It is why I kind of wished Agatha hadn't sacrificed herself, it seemed out of character. That is twice (WandaVision, Agatha All Along) where the lead was really the bad guy, and the show tries to have its cake and eat it too by handwaving a bit of how bad the actions were by crouching it in personal trauma.


   
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

@darkxorn

Spoiler
eps 8 and 9 construction
I wonder if, during episode 8, at the point Agatha is left alone in the final trial, is when they should have done the flashback sequence. The flashback I think would have worked great as Agatha's thoughts when she believed she had failed on the road and was about to die, thought about Nicky, and then looked in the locket and saw the dandelion seed - meaning the fact that at the end she was thinking about Nicky and not herself was how she survived the trial, not worrying about not having her power back.

Then episode 9 would have started just after she gets out of the basement, contained the battle, and then the reveal of ghost Agatha. I think they prioritized the reveal about Billy creating the road over the reveal about Nicky and that Wanda never expected the road to happen, and wanted us to think Agatha was dead - but that never seemed likely. I think it would have helped Wanda's motivation in the battle if we knew about Nicky and Rio and that past history first, and if she died mid-episode 9 I might have believed it was going to stick.

On rewatch it may not matter, but I'd have structured differently.


   
ReplyQuote
(@darkxorn)
Fwoosh!!!
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 341
 

@fac

Spoiler
.
I liked how the flashback was left to the final episode, because one of the central mysteries of the show was who is Teen, are they Nicholas, how did Nicholas die, what happened regarding his death that caused the rift between Rio and Agatha. When we found out that it was he and Agatha that created the Ballad of The Witches Road, but it originally being a positive song about a mother and son's love, it makes the Agatha bastardization of it to kill other witches layered. Knowing that Agatha died in the previous episode was pretty vital to me. Narratively if we found out the truth of the witches road and how Nicky died before the big showdown, I don't think it would have capped off the show nearly as effectively.

It really was Agatha All Along. She created a con that lasted for centuries and had an immense effect on witchcraft as a whole. That's the bookend to the story.

She wanted more time for Nicky and that was the one thing she couldn't give him, but she could grant more time for Billy. Two boys being chased by death.

And I just generally dig stories that subvert the typical finale format.


   
fac reacted
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

One more thought about Agatha -

Spoiler
Nicky

Death was apparently upset that Billy Maximoff had taken over the dead body of William Kaplan, so she didn't get the body, like the balance was out of whack. Agatha implies she made Nicky "from scratch" do we think that Death was coming for Nicky because he shouldn't have naturally existed in the first place? So part of Agatha's protection of Billy (after he invoked Nicky) was because it was another kid that Death wanted because trhey shouldn't exist per se? (Might be a stretch)


   
ReplyQuote
TFitz
(@tfitz)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 500
 

I need something explained to me. Don't read if you haven't finished Agatha.

Agatha would never talk about her sons death and even let people believe she may have done something horrible to him. She made it seem like something very dark happened. But it turns out he should have been stillborn and Death gave her "time". He died peacefully in his sleep years later. So why was his death made a "thing"? Seems like a really stupid thing tossed in for no reason.


   
ReplyQuote
(@darkxorn)
Fwoosh!!!
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 341
 
Spoiler
Nicholas

The day Nicky performed The Ballad of The Witches Road in the tavern (the day he would die), Nicky backed out of the plan to lure in the coven for Agatha to drain and kill, and instead ran away. He didn't like her killing Witches to begin with, but as she was his mother, he went along with it. So using their song to do it, didn't sit right with him.

After his death, and through her grief and malice, Agatha then used the Ballad, to kill hundreds of witches for centuries. That was her shame, and why she wanted to remain a ghost. She said to Billy she wouldn't move on because "she can't face him". It seems to her, it was a betrayal of the bond they had and what they created in the song. Despite questioning by Rio when she asked "Why do you let them say those awful things about Nicky" , Agatha already thought what she did concerning Nicky far worse than any of the rumors that circulated, so she didn't correct them. Plus, if she had of corrected them, it would could have ended the scam, and Agatha is still a villainous character who desired power.


   
ReplyQuote
(@darkxorn)
Fwoosh!!!
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 341
 

Posted by: @fac

One more thought about Agatha -

Spoiler
Nicky

Death was apparently upset that Billy Maximoff had taken over the dead body of William Kaplan, so she didn't get the body, like the balance was out of whack. Agatha implies she made Nicky "from scratch" do we think that Death was coming for Nicky because he shouldn't have naturally existed in the first place? So part of Agatha's protection of Billy (after he invoked Nicky) was because it was another kid that Death wanted because trhey shouldn't exist per se? (Might be a stretch)

Spoiler
Nicky
I don't think Nicky's existence offended Death, I think it was more to do with the fact he was destined to die in childbirth. She granted Agatha the extra time out of love. She even said that "nobody in history got the special treatment you got". To me, it was the extra time Death granted that a skewed the cosmic balance, not that he existed. And ultimately, Death had to come to collect. Then that echoes Billy and how he's stolen extra time. Billy was a soul created by Wanda and somewhat out of Death's grasp unless he surrendered himself to her. William Kaplan was supposed to die, but now his body is housing Billy (I don't think we ever got confirmation if their souls have merged although it was talked about afew times), he's an anomaly that clonks up the gears of the natural order.

I'm not even going down the rabbit hole about Death being Nicky's mother/father, because I've seen a lot of conversation about that recently.

 


   
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

@darkxorn @tfitz 

I agree Death gave Agatha time with Nicky out of her caring for Agatha, but she also made the point of appearing to Agatha, and Agatha wasn't surprised she was there, so I still think there is more to the story - that Agatha knew what was coming but maybe had second thoughts. Maybe she really did make a trade, or an agreement, that involved Nicky going with Death, which we didn't see - but Death allowed extra time before the deal was complete. I suspect there is another shoe to drop here. (Note that I saw limited evidence that Death can initiate a death or stop a death from happening...that was their partnership - Agatha got power, Death got the bodies...)

I also think it might have been in Agatha's best interests to be viewed as so ruthless and powerful as to have even betrayed her own son for power? So why fight that rumor. 


   
ReplyQuote
 fac
(@fac)
Member
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 999
 

So rewatched the last two episodes of Agatha again, and I might declare this the best D+ Marvel show. Only Loki is real competition for me in terms of execution and aspirations and rewatch-ability. 

I did the swap where just as Agatha is alone in the dark and says "sometimes boys die" I jumped to the flashback, and then back to Agatha completing the trial with the cliffhanger being Death on the roof. Then Ep 9 is really focused more on Billy and Agatha's relationship. I think it really works well that way.


   
ReplyQuote
Page 59 / 69
Share: