I believe, and God know I've been wrong before, that most of the team is going to get wiped out (completely annihilated) in the first 15 or 20 minutes of the movie. Possible exceptions being Yelena, USAgent and Bucky. Everyone else will be taking a dirt nap. And then before the third act, we'll see the REAL cast ... The Dark Avengers. I believe that's Val's ultimate plan.
Hence the asterisk in the title "Thunderbolts*".
USAgent? There's your Dark Captain America. Yelena? There's your Dark Black Widow. The Swordsman from the Hawkeye series? Dark Hawkeye. The tiny symbiote that jumped off Eddie Brock when he was visiting Earth 616? Dark Spider-Man. President Ross = Dark Red Hulk. Hercules = Dark Thor. I don't know about Iron Man yet, but maybe Val can try and trick Riri into it.
Most of those characters aren't evil but they can be duped.
The big showdown between Dark Avengers and whoever becomes the real Avengers will be in Secret Wars.
Of course, I'm probably wrong about all this. In which case ... carry on.
:::walks away whistling:::
I think I want you to be wrong, but obviously you could be entirely right and some characters' scenes in the trailer are all from the first act. The best thing about your suggestions would be finally bringing back Hercules, and in this manner makes total sense. Second best thing about your suggestions to me is a dark Spider-Man since I really want to add him to my 'movie versions of the comic Dark Avengers team' group of figures. Right now I just have a repainted Iron Man mk 3 and comic book Ares with his armor repainted to look more metal and battle-worn.
I really feel like Ross/Red Hulk won't be in Thunderbolts, but that's entirely my feeling so I have nothing to really go on there. but it makes complete sense for Val to assemble a team of her own versions of the original MCU Avengers. And also the Iron Heart trailer makes it look like Riri has an easy time falling in with bad people for good reasons, so that would make total sense. Her show, the last I saw, was scheduled for summer of next year, so... it could coincide with Thunderbolts.
Or, if you wanna get kinda awful with it, have Val talk young Morgan Stark into following her dad's legacy. I always said Tony is clearly the irresponsible type who made several armors for his kid (Marks 51-84?), and Val is certainly morally flexible enough to push that into action.
Taskmaster would make a decent Dark Hawkeye too though, but... I gotta go back to the comics for that and hope for Bullseye. If Val shows up in Born Again and has a word with Ben Poindexter, well... it's probably best if I watch that show in my white pants just in case.
Ultimate, I hope they form a Dark Avengers team entirely based on the original comic lineup. Moonstone as Captain Marvel, Gargan as Spider-Man, Sentry, etc, even if Iron Patriot is now Justin Hammer or someone else entirely (like with Robert Downey Jr as Doom, I feel Willam Dafoe in No Way Home is the only Norman the MCU is getting), I'd be giddy as hell about it. But I've kept up well with the MCU so far and I know they rarely, if ever, adhere closely to the page. So emulating the 2012 team is far more likely. IF they do in fact switch to Dark Avengers midway through the movie.
@ru1977 I love the way Strange ended. And it's even better because of most of the MCU that one had the most right to just end with 'I beat up the bad guy' because you can just explain the change in power dynamic with 'it's magic.' It wouldn't need to make sense that Strange just came up with a spell that wins the fight. But they, as you said, went with one of the better MCU endings thus far.
AND YET... people will still complain, without actually seeing the movie, that Bucky can't fist-fight Sentry, and therefore Thunderbolts is a bad movie.
@sdcomics I don't think I agree with you that they'll do it, but I absolutely wouldn't be mad if they did. Kind of feels like it would be a more serious version of what they did in Deadpool 2.
@fac I see what you're saying. But again, I'll take dour and PTSD-riddled mains over an entire troupe of quipsters any day, at this point. However, your point (respectfully) may be a little self-defeating when you admit that at least two of the main characters, which is anywhere from half to a third of who we'll be spending the most time with, are not particularly dour characters.
Even Bucky's more recent appearances were a little lighter in tone than Civil War-era Bucky.
Can we just get ONE scene in Thunderbolts where Bucky runs into Frank Castle and Frank tells him to fix stuff by just using his psychic powers or traveling through time, and Bucky says 'do you think I'm Cable?' Because that was one of my favorite things to happen in comics, maybe ever.
As for Walker - I'm actually not particularly interested in seeing him redeemed quite yet. In fact, I kind of want him to fall further. I think that would make his redemption arc, if he gets one, far better. But I also KIND OF, and forgive me for this, just don't want him to have a redemption arc. I'm a bit tickled by the idea (that exists entirely in my own head) that he'll just become fascist-Cap. I feel like I'd prefer Sam having to deal with 'Dark Cap' as a full bad guy than as yet another kind-of villain with a 'I was just trying to do the right thing' backstory that may or may not end up being redeemed. Just let him, as in real life, fall further and further into fascism and authoritarianism until someone offs him like he deserves.
I really feel like Ross/Red Hulk won't be in Thunderbolts, but that's entirely my feeling so I have nothing to really go on there.
Something I thought of a little while ago: Another good choice for "Dark Hulk" is the Abomination. It's always good to see Tim Roth act again.
Taskmaster would make a decent Dark Hawkeye too though, but... I gotta go back to the comics for that and hope for Bullseye. If Val shows up in Born Again and has a word with Ben Poindexter, well... it's probably best if I watch that show in my white pants just in case.
That's brilliant. That's so brilliant that I wish I would have thought of that. Wilson Bethel is a great actor. I would love to see him suit up as Dark Hawkeye.
Great post as always, Ru!
So earlier this evening I was sitting in a dark movie theater waiting for Alien: Romulus to begin (Great movie, BTW) and something occurred to me. Something really cool but may be a long shot.
Okay, so you remember when Marvel first announced the cast of Thunderbolts and there was a collective groan from the internet? Now God knows that the internet very often reacts negatively to things and usually over-reacts, but this was one of those rare times when I thought they might actually have a point. These guys are not fan favorite characters by any stretch. They're not A list, not B list and may not even be C list. They're not headliners. And they have very weak power sets. Hell, Forbush Man could beat the shit out of them in a fight.
I was like "Marvel, what the hell are you thinking here?" And I knew there had to be something else going on. Say what you want about the Marvel Studios brain trust, but they do like to play the long game. And if you're familiar with the Thunderbolts from the comics, you know nothing stays static with them very long. They are constantly changing, constantly evolving. The Masters of Evil begat the Thunderbolts who begat the Dark Avengers.
So my theory was these guys are a red herring and we'll see the REAL team in the 2nd or 3rd act of the film. And of course my first thought was the Dark Avengers.
But what if ... it were something else? Something even more intense? Something that would get tongues a wagging and (Dare I say it?) crack the internet in half?
What if it were ... (wait for it) ... The Squadron Supreme?
I mean ... do you get more fan favorite than Superman (Hyperion), Batman (Nighthawk) and Wonder Woman (Power Princess)?
So now you're thinking "No, Disney would never do that. They'd be too afraid of being sued by Warners." Well, that's true. But consider this: Marvel and DC have been playing kissy face lately. James Gunn has said there "have been talks" between the two companies. Jim Lee and C.B. Cebulski just did a signing together at a convention. Marvel and DC are reprinting their earlier crossovers for the first time in years as a pair of omnibuses. And Disney and Max are bundling their streaming services together. Yes, I know they're doing this mostly because they need the money. But ... they're doing it. I don't think the Squadron Supreme showing up in a Marvel movie is outside the realm of possibility anymore, if it ever was.
And ... wouldn't it be a hoot if Henry Cavill played Hyperion and Gal Gadot played Power Princess?
Eh, I'm doing my old man rambling thing again. Anyway, go see Alien Romulus. Wonderful movie.
Oh, one last thing (for tonight, anyway): I still think Nick Fury and Baron Zemo are going to play some kind of role in this story, even if they're not much more than glorified cameos.
Okay, good night.
Of course anything is possible, but I see a lot of people putting hope into things they aren't excited for quickly leading to something they can be excited for. A lot of people can't talk about RDJ as Doom without mentioning how they hope it will yield 'the real Doom'. And maybe that will totally happen. Even if it isn't Marvel's plan presently, yeah maybe a different Doom will come later. Maybe the 'team' on Thunderbolts is a fake out. And I'm not saying that in a patronizing way because we really have no idea. The asterisk is very deliberate.
And then before the third act, we'll see the REAL cast ... The Dark Avengers. I believe that's Val's ultimate plan.
Fingers crossed. From the get-go, Dark Avengers is what I wanted and something the MCU is uniquely set up to do.
Instead of a Suicide Squad clone, they play off the Avengers kind of ending with Endgame (with all the originals either dead, retired or off-Earth) and the US government stepping in to make their own group modeled after them to buy some citizen approval.
Not exactly villains stealing heroic identities like the DA comic, but an obvious attempt to replicate/cash in on the good will left by the previous group (while they're used for more off-book government ops stuff).
At the time, my fanfic was USAgent, Abomination, Yelena Widow, Taskmaster to take the Hawkeye spot, and Justin Hammer's Titanium Man armor as an obvious improvement over Iron Man (I mean, everybody knows titanium is stronger than iron). Add in Ghost as a Vision type, and all we really need is a Thor surrogate which I suppose could be why they introduce Sentry, where they really lean into his original comic gag of being America's greatest hero that was erased from memory (although in reality that's all government propaganda.)
I guess there's also room to add in an Eric O'Grady Ant-Man or Rita DeMara Yellowjacket. And maybe fill in the Wanda gap that I'm coming up blank on.
The plot I had was sort of about dealing with the aliens now living on Earth, the Skrulls and New Asgard specifically, but potentially dealing with formerly hidden civilisations like Wakanada and Talokan/Atlantis. Almost leading to WWIII but somehow getting credit for averting it.
Yes, I absolutely have my own MCU developing in my mind, and I'm sure that's a sign of a 100% stable person.
@fletch I am probably not the person to comfort you as I've been fanplotting how they can do Dark Avengers since 2012. A little tweak here and there with each subsequent release, but yeah I kept thinking who could fill those roles. Sometimes I go with MCUing it and making it fit the narrative they're doing, sometimes I think how to fit characters from the original comic like Bullseye and Mac Gargan.
I always thought a good place to do a Dark Avengers movie would be set after Thanos snapped, when the Avengers were broken, and a recovering psychotic would lead a government sanctioned Avengers team that he ultimately loses control of, resulting in the siege of New Asgard. But that's something that could still happen.
I just reeeeally wanna see Area standing on the nose of an F-25 with ax and sword ready, flying into New Asgard. There are a lot of great moments in that series that would be outstanding in a movie, but that image is so damned cinematic. And throwing in the whole 'harboring skrulls' angle is fantastic.
Also, Dark Scarlet Witch, for the MCU? Probably Agatha if I had to pick now. That show may yield other options though.
@ru1977 I love the way Strange ended. And it's even better because of most of the MCU that one had the most right to just end with 'I beat up the bad guy' because you can just explain the change in power dynamic with 'it's magic.' It wouldn't need to make sense that Strange just came up with a spell that wins the fight. But they, as you said, went with one of the better MCU endings thus far.
I really wish they would get away from the big final battles more often. Loki is one of their best shows and both seasons ended without a fight per se. I feel like they have actually undermined some of their own work by falling on the big battle to resolve things trope - WandaVision didn't need the witch-fu or shootouts, I'd argue Shang Chi would have been better if it didn't involve a dragon at the end, etc. It is the one thing I dislike about comics, how often it falls back on who is the most powerful...
@fac However, your point (respectfully) may be a little self-defeating when you admit that at least two of the main characters, which is anywhere from half to a third of who we'll be spending the most time with, are not particularly dour characters.
Yelena's brand of dour works best in contrast to other people being upbeat/normal, so we will see how it plays out...
Responding to some of the other speculation, I agree this may be the film where a few characters don't make it, and my money is on this being the end of Bucky to be honest. But I suspect this will be as close as we get to a Dark Avengers storyline, the question may be who at the end is willing to go along with whoever is pulling the strings and stay on the "Dark" team and who does not.
As for Walker - I'm actually not particularly interested in seeing him redeemed quite yet. In fact, I kind of want him to fall further. I think that would make his redemption arc, if he gets one, far better. But I also KIND OF, and forgive me for this, just don't want him to have a redemption arc.
I'd be fine with that, but if they wanted to go that route, I think they undermined it by not having Sam and Bucky respect him and try to help him in the role and then he turns out to be a power-mad jerk, instead of them being all "mean girl" to the new guy, and him snapping after his partner was killed (in part due to the same reaction to the super-soldier serum that presumably Bradley had), and basically leading the audience by the nose to think badly of him from the start.
RDJ on his new role:
So, probably a year ago...cause, you know, [Kevin] Feige and I have kept in touch. We're pals. Favreau, Feige, and I have kept in touch. I'm close with the Russo Brothers; we have other business we're doing. So, there's this little group of fellow travelers and I had this instinct that I wanted to go to Bob Iger and I had an idea outside of the Cinematic Universe for how I could be of service to what's going on in the Parks and all their location-based entertainment.
Susan and I were sitting down with Feige at one point, and he said, 'It just keeps occurring to me that if you were to come back...' and Susan was like, 'Wait, wait, come back as what?' Then we both realized over time that it was another thing that just disproves any doubt anyone could ever have about that guy, a very sophisticated creative thinker, about how can we not go backwards, how can we not disappoint expectations, how we can continue to beat expectations? And he brought up Victor Von Doom. I looked up this character and I was like, 'Wow.'
So then I said to Kevin, 'Can I go talk to Bob Iger?' He goes, 'About?' I go, 'About everything. I'd gone to Bob's house and I don't know how to describe that experience. I've had a lot of really cool experiences, but I go to Iger's pad, we sit down and he goes, 'I like it.' I was like, 'He likes it.' He said, 'Come by the Imagineering Campus.' Feige and I go to the Imagineering Campus and you want to talk about two guys that are not easy to have their minds blown, let alone at the same time...I can't say too much, but what is going on there right now is so beyond my expectation of what was possible.
Man, the fact he played Iron Man for a solid decade but had no idea who Doom was is a bit deflating, imho. Not in the sense that every actor should know the entirety of the universe they're entering as a performer but that there was never a moment of all these folks just bullshitting about Marvel comics as a whole or the single-greatest villain character in them.
VERY quick little shots from Born Again, Iron Heart, and Thunderbolts, with a longer shot from Cap 4.
I finally saw Deadpool & Wolverine.
I laughed a lot and liked the general message about the ol' Fox movies. On the other hand, though, the story didn't actually interest me and all the action scenes that didn't take place in a Honda Odyssey were really boring.
I'm really (really) tired of the multiverse nostalgia casting gimmick, but what really needs a rest is starting a movie with an action scene just so we can get a "let me tell you how we got here" rewind.
Fortunately it kept me laughing throughout, so I can say I enjoyed it, but it didn't have a lot else going for it.
When asked for an update about Armor Wars, Don Cheadle said "....what's Armor Wars?"
Well, that doesn't sound good...
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