I'd be okay sticking with what's his name as Danny as a guest star and Colleen taking a lead. I still would be cool with most if not all those characters being folded into a large ensemble series, call it Marvel Knights or something. Introduce other street level characters and villains here and there along the way.
@schizm The line that made me glitch out, and honestly it wasn't THAT bad, it was just a reminder that this is a comic book show, was:
It just felt so less grounded than the rest of the episode.
@ru1977 I have been mad for YEARS that we never got a Daughters of the Dragon spinoff. They cast Colleen and Misty PERFECTLY.
Y'know, I wouldn't be mad if they brought Danny back. He was the weakest of the four leads but Danny's always been a bit of a pollyannaish goof. With the right writer they could make it work.
I think Finn Jones is a good actor and he did better in the second season, I thought. I'd like to see him return.
I'd love it if the director of John Wick could do a Defenders movie or something.
So, I do wonder if the Netflix shows gave so much more depth to the supporting characters partly because they had 13 episodes to fill - so you have the room to stretch out a little and fill in those spaces with real characterization that might get skipped when trying to cram a story into 10, 8 or 6 episodes worth of show. I mean, I remember at the time plenty of complaints about too much drag in the stories of the Netflix shows to stretch the seasons to 13 episodes... but I do think the flip side of the coin was the added scope for the supporting cast.
And I agree that the supporting cast on Daredevil was the best of the bunch. They did a really good job with Foggy and Karen especially, but also with Ben Urich, and Vanessa Fisk amongh others.
Lets be honest; the side characters get so much to do b/c they had 13 hours to fill with a small budget. Happy to move on primarily to a new set. Unless they want to bring Coleen and Misty back. That I'm for.
The side characters got a lot to do because that's good writing. A plots, B plots, C plots, all woven together to explore all the characters and the world, and thus reflect the main character.
One of She Hulk's best episodes was Nikki and Pug (?) on the shoe hunt. A B plot that worked and gave the supporting cast *something* to do. And then that was it. The lack of B plots and depth in supporting characters in streaming shows is a huge writing flaw.
Anora was very interesting, but it kept five characters all spinning for most of the runtime - all talking, all participating, all with distinct motivations and perspectives - and I think it's one of the reasons that movie is doing so well.
Right, 13 hours or not, a good writer knows how to make the B and C plots strong AND weave them with the A plot. Look at practically any successful sitcom and you'll see B and C plots that are usually as good as the main plot, and frequently influence each other as well. Daredevil is the series I'm most familiar with, so I'm aware of how well Foggy and Karen, along with Fisk, Urich, Elektra, and Punisher, were woven into the series. Matt is such a strong main character, but his supporting characters were written to be essential not just to him but also the plots.
Seems like that's one difference with Born Again, so far. The supporting characters are there to service Matt and Fisk. Hector and BB definitely have potential to break out of that though.
I have been mad for YEARS that we never got a Daughters of the Dragon spinoff. They cast Colleen and Misty PERFECTLY.
Y'know, I wouldn't be mad if they brought Danny back. He was the weakest of the four leads but Danny's always been a bit of a pollyannaish goof. With the right writer they could make it work.
Completely agreed on Colleen and Misty, as well as the right writer making Danny work. And I feel Danny really benefits from his scene partners too.
Y'know, whatever the reason, they really made those support characters matter. What happened with Wesley showed how much that one human connection meant to Fisk and put Karen in a whole world of danger without Matt or Fisk even being in the room. They definitely used DD's supporting case to raise stakes and make the leads better (Fisk is IMO the scariest villain anything MCU-related has ever done, because he always feels one moment away from exploding but can also be... so very human when he's not on a murderous rampage. When his heart breaks, it goes nuclear.)
Jessica's supporting cast helped show how isolated and defensive she could be. Luke's embedded him in a community around him that mattered. Frank's gave him moments to not be a killing machine. Danny's pulled his head out of the clouds.
Also all reinforced the themes of trauma each show focused on because it wasn't just the hero who was overcoming that kind of trauma. It was all around them.
I'm continuing my Daredevil rewatch and caught another Yeah Yeah Yeahs song in season two, kinda funny. I enjoyed season three a lot, and obviously season 1 was fantastic, but season 2 is my favorite. Everyone is just nailing their roles, including the writers.
Y'know, whatever the reason, they really made those support characters matter. What happened with Wesley showed how much that one human connection meant to Fisk and put Karen in a whole world of danger without Matt or Fisk even being in the room.
That's an excellent point. I tend to forget about Wesley really, but he's SUCH an important character in the beginning. Fisk even refers to him as his friend at one point, and Wesley clearly cares about Wilson as far more than an organized crime superior type. The scene with Karen was pretty jaw dropping just on its own, and such a great scene, but you're right... it didn't even have one of the two leads and was still one of the most memorable moments of the entire series.
They definitely used DD's supporting case to raise stakes and make the leads better (Fisk is IMO the scariest villain anything MCU-related has ever done, because he always feels one moment away from exploding but can also be... so very human when he's not on a murderous rampage. When his heart breaks, it goes nuclear.)
Right. He's like a REALLY strong little boy. Kinda pouty, broken, and acts out hard like smashing someone's head in a car door a couple dozen times while repeatedly yelling "you embarrassed me in front of her!"
Another really memorable moment for the entire show was also a first season scene with someone who went relatively early is when Wilson tells Ben Urich, "No, I'm here to KILL you!"
It's such a great show, and not just because of the great action, or the one-take hallway fights etc. The show had SO much heart and the characters were all, even the villains, someone I enjoyed getting to know and care about, which made the brutality throughout that much more impactful.
I remember when it was first announced they were doing Daredevil as a show rather than a movie, and a site I was on was full of laments. And I posted on there saying no, this is a great thing because they can treat the story like a novel and not just let Matt get a ton of development, but the characters as well and the city in general. Hell's Kitchen is practically a character in the show too, constantly being tugged in at least two directions at any given time. The Yeah Yeah Yeahs song I mentioned was played over a lengthy scene of not-Yakuza members meeting up in the streets on motorcycles and riding toward where Elektra and Matt are. it's such an interesting scene that has no dialogue at all but I found it captivating anyway. Just spending a little bit of time with people you'll never see again after they get their asses handed to them momentarily.
Jessica's supporting cast helped show how isolated and defensive she could be. Luke's embedded him in a community around him that mattered. Frank's gave him moments to not be a killing machine. Danny's pulled his head out of the clouds.
Also all reinforced the themes of trauma each show focused on because it wasn't just the hero who was overcoming that kind of trauma. It was all around them.
All outstanding points. And hey, I STILL sing I Want Your Cray Cray to my wife to make her laugh. but yeah, otherwise, yes, their supporting casts were really well planned out and all these shows were thematically on point.
Haven't had a chance to watch this yet and may not until it hits midseason, but just curious, has whatever Echo did to Fisk in her show (the implication was she removed his "pain/anger" somehow) been addressed or seemed to impact things or his character?
Haven't had a chance to watch this yet and may not until it hits midseason, but just curious, has whatever Echo did to Fisk in her show (the implication was she removed his "pain/anger" somehow) been addressed or seemed to impact things or his character?
There are definitely references to her, but the impact of what she did has, in my opinion, yet to be fully addressed.... But isn't absolutely ignored either.
@fac It is directly addressed very early on. Personally I think she effed him up more than is physically visible in the show, but they actually fully acknowledge the entire Echo arc and it adds a bit to Fisk's character.
@ru1977 I still can't get over how well they cast Elektra. One of my friends asked if every time she calls him by his full first name was a jump scare for me and it WAS.
@docsilence HAW!!!!! Nice. I bet it was!
And I completely agree. The way she was portrayed reminded me a lot of my most notorious ex (just... personality-wise, not the murderous stuff), so watching that season... I REALLY felt for Matt. I totally got why he was drawn to her while knowing he should steer utterly clear of her, especially when the Karen situation was blooming. That's a whole other thing I felt was handled really well, and also that Karen wasn't immediately 'the girl', and even once that started, she STILL had her own plot and agency going on beyond Matt.
But yeah, to me, Elodie Yung was perfect as Elektra and even elevated some of the lesser aspects of Defenders for me too.
Also thank you for chiming in about the Echo stuff. It's definitely not hand waved, but I'm also holding out to see just how much of an impact she really had on him. But yeah, there's a lot going on under his surface I believe will be a slow burn/reveal over the season, particularly what's going on with Vanessa. And I suspect Vanessa will have a massive impact on everything by the end. I could be wrong though.
And hey, I STILL sing I Want Your Cray Cray to my wife to make her laugh.
HA! This just made me laugh. That song was so good.
I haven't rewatched JJ, I don't think any of the seasons, but I love a good musical moment, especially when it's that catchy. Or cray.
Tomorrow is the day for a new episode!!! cant wait. The man without fear!!!
Who's Pumped?
I doubt anyone at this point. Three pages is probably all we've got.
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