I will give Dan that. He is right that people would be complaining it isn't part of the campaign and that it shouldn't affect the price.
However this is Dan who also keeps saying Haslabs (Galactus and Fin Fang Foom) would be $500US if they did them today, while they are offering a highly detailed 24" Haslab figure for $200US. So I would take what he says about Haslabs with a tiny grain of salt.
Again, I do agree with him about the fact there would be complaints, but that is a given no matter what they do, and the lack of any sort of synergistic product being promoted seems like a missed opportunity.
Either way.....
Giant-Man:
6,211 / 10,000 (+135) 62.11% of funding goal with 5d 18h left.
Another daily increase over the previous day and back into triple digit daily gains. Seems to finally be picking up steam.
IMO, I think they completely missed the point of why the EOV failed. It wasn't the figures as tiers that killed it. It wasn't just because it was a vehicle.
I hope you're wrong, because I still really want a FantastiCar.
I'd thought the big flaw in the EoV was that, as a (relatively) newer character, it didn't have a lot of 40+ year old fans with their disposable income to bring to the game, but OG Giant-Man is about as old school as you can get, so what do I know?
New NYCC interview posted last night by Boog, and in it Ryan gave a very specific reason why they haven't shown the Wasp during the campaign that they've been teasing during every interview at the con:
Boog: I think that at least seeing some renders of Wasp or supporting characters now would probably help boost the campaign.
Ryan: You think so?
Boog: I think so.
Ryan: You think people would be able to conceptualize to see something and then be like "oh, I understand why that's a separate item," or it's like (Ryan cups his hands to his mouth like they're a megaphone) "THROW IT IN FOR FREE! EVERYTHING YOU SHOW US SHOULD NOW BE $200!" That's a trade-off, it's a gamble.
So it sounds like they were worried that if they showed a Wasp, or a scaled-down version of the HasLab, then despite the low campaign price people would still take being charged extra for supporting figures as a negative, whereas if they wait until after the campaign we're less likely to get pissed about paying for those separately.
I don't care either way, but I'm sure we'll be hearing some hot takes about that over the next few days. 😳
Thanks for posting this. I wonder if they aren't being overly sensitive to the loudest voices here, and maybe missing that those folks are less likely to support either way and just like to sling mud? Either way we know Wasp is coming, so anyone on the fence who is paying attention to the boards/these conversations can make their decision with that in mind.
It's weird; I want to support Marvel Haslabs, I backed EoV and I still may support this one, but I'm not super-excited for it. Partly character choice, but also execution - why all the stitching detail? - the smaller figures could support this level of detail, but they don't include it, so this guy is slightly out of synch with the main line. Also, agree the faceplate expressions are fairly goofy. Part of the problem is they still don't quite have a handle on the new paint app methods - they're leaning into it too hard. One day we'll look back on this like the early years of computer coloring in comics, where everything was overly garish. I rarely see this kind of coloring in the comics, so why shoot for it here?
And yeah, this all adds to the nit-pickiness the campaign has had to deal with, but still better than Star Wars discourse!
I feel like maybe their idea was to try to make something similar to Mondo or Hot Toys for around the same price. Hence the stitching and the eyeballs painted from behind.
I wonder if they had just gone in on that if it had done better.
You know, essentially just revive ML 12" as a Mondo competitor. High detail, premium deco, swappable back painted eyes. More accessories to make up for the smaller size relative to this.
I keep coming back to the idea that maybe 6" Legends collectors aren't the ideal market for a Haslab, period. We buy $7 figures on clearance. I'd bet we're the most price sensitive of all of Hasbro's action figure markets. I said I thought the EoV was too premium for Legends and that a lot of people who WANT a car might prefer a Bratz car.
I REGULARLY hold out to get figures half price with Legends.
Meanwhile, I pay over retail for Transformers and buy figures just to accessorize one another and occasionally 3rd Party upgrade kits. ML collectors buy cheap bootleg replacements for figures, not upgrade kits. Nobody's out there making upgraded hands and limbs. Maybe a few celebrity head sculpts but even then they run cheaper than most other lines' customs.
I honestly think maybe Legends is too much of a budget line to be compatible with Haslab unless there's no other way to do a character justice.
Whereas if they just set out to make a Mondo competitor 1/6 Spidey or maybe a Mezco/TBLeague style Wolverine with soft goods and seamless joints, I bet it'd go better than anything they've done.
I know there's an aversion to doing stuff like Optimus Prime or Spider-Man as Haslabs but that comes from the assumption that the figures are part of the retail line.
If you just made it a separate line of standalone pieces with limited worldbuilding, maybe they'd do better courting people other than us -- or at least engaging the part of us that collects other stuff.
I donno, I think there's a subgroup of ML collectors who want these to be more high end. Think of anyone who's replaced Wolverine's claws, or gotten custom soft goods capes made, or custom painted heads. It's not ALL budget collectors. I think there's a subgroup of discount holdouts looking to build up custom fodder too.
I will give Dan that. He is right that people would be complaining it isn't part of the campaign and that it shouldn't affect the price.
However this is Dan who also keeps saying Haslabs (Galactus and Fin Fang Foom) would be $500US if they did them today, while they are offering a highly detailed 24" Haslab figure for $200US. So I would take what he says about Haslabs with a tiny grain of salt.
Again, I do agree with him about the fact there would be complaints, but that is a given no matter what they do, and the lack of any sort of synergistic product being promoted seems like a missed opportunity.
Either way.....
Giant-Man:
6,211 / 10,000 (+135) 62.11% of funding goal with 5d 18h left.
Another daily increase over the previous day and back into triple digit daily gains. Seems to finally be picking up steam.
I think there's still an aversion on the ML's team to an honest post mortem of the EoV.
I said it at the time and I'm still saying it:
There's nothing wrong with pissing some people off. I don't think it hurts crowdfunding campaigns, which only need to succeed with a small audience. I don't think the EoV was hurt by people being pissed off or negative Youtube videos.
I think EoV failed because the team couldn't articulate a clear vision to 10,000 people that was louder than the people who were pissed off.
The campaign, if fully unlocked, would have included Robbie Reyes, RR Ghost Rider, Mephisto, Goblin Queen, and Damion Hellstrom.
There's no clear theme there aside from "spooky".
Nobody would want separate Robbie and GR figures. They wasted $25 of the price right there. They don't display together. Marvel Legends almost never makes secret identities so there's no place for Robbie to go.
Then there's Mephisto. Weird version. Okay. He is at least an enemy of Robbie's Avengers but they aren't really closely connected. That reveal shook things. It's not that it pissed people off. That's okay. Pissing people off isn't a threat to funding. But it's imprecise vision.
Then there's Maddie. WTF?! She's not related to anything else in the Haslab and the costume comes from one 2015 comic. It's not even a 616 Maddie. Someone Robbie's never met -- and not even the version from his universe.
By the time Damion rolled out, it was off the rails. He's met Robbie once but looked totally different and this is a mobile video game version. How did we end up with a Gamerverse figure?!
For comparison:
If Giant-Man was $300 and included Ant Man Pym in a lab coat, regular sized Giant Man, Yellowjacket, and Hank Pym Wasp? Okay!
If Giant-Man was $300 and leaned into the Avengers Anniversary theme? Okay! Maybe 60s Black Widow with the mask and fishnets, green Wonder Man, Swordsman, and Rick Jones! There's a theme!
If Giant-Man was $300 and included Micronauts Bug, Slingers Hornet, Red Locust from Captain America, and MCU GotG Holiday Special Mantis? Okay. That's a cute theme for a capsule or a wave and might diversify interest so different customers get different figures! But it's not a rational theme for a single purchase. Diversifying a Haslab's offerings is bad!
It's not any coherent sub-collection! It might as well be all red characters! Might as well do Erik the Red, first appearance Carol Danvers Ms. Marvel, Carnage Silver Surfer, and Mephisto! All because Giant-Man is red?
Again, you can piss off a million people if you appeal to 10k. But 10k people need a coherent vision so they can say, "Screw you guys, the Legends team as a plan!" It's only if there's no coherent vision that the doubters matter.
...
Whereas if they just set out to make a Mondo competitor 1/6 Spidey or maybe a Mezco/TBLeague style Wolverine with soft goods and seamless joints, I bet it'd go better than anything they've done.
...
I don't think Mezco or Mondo figures are made in quantities anywhere near the minimums for a Haslab. So I don't think there would be quite the demand for a 1/6 spidey as there would be for Galactus or even Giant Man. They'd have to sell less figures at a lower cost meaning less revenue. A smash hit for Mezco probably brings in money that wouldn't be worth the time and effort for Hasbro.
What hurt the EoV Haslab the most was its price. It was released at $350 right on the heels of the Hiss tank, which was $300. Look back on the discussions when EoV was unveiled (there's still something up on ToyArk, I think — I mentioned it way back in this thread), people immediately started grumbling and there was a lot of negativity from the get-go. Poor stretch goal choices pushed it over the edge.
If they had set the price at $300 to match the Hiss, even cutting down on the figures — maybe only included Helstrom and Mephisto as extras, Pulse would likely be delivering EoVs to a bunch of people in a month or so.
I think there are some who are being awfully, awfully nit-picky in regard how these projects are handled. If they just did this...or they should have done this...or if they would have included this...or if they would have just announced this...
The bottom line is, do you want a giant-sized Giant-Man at this price or do you not?
If your answer is, "Yes, I want a giant-sized Giant-Man but only if my specific conditions are met"...well, then, you may not REALLY want a Giant-Man.
I do want a Giant-Man this size, at this price. I don't want this one though.
The bottom line is I want the Giant-Man I want, not what would amount to an eyesore in my toyroom.
Something this size is going to draw the eye and become the focal point of my or any Avengers display.
I just won't have a goofy 1960's costume as a focal point, I would rather pass on this has-lab entirely.
The price doesn't bother me,
I bought the Glactus, the sentinel and the dragonfly haslab projects.
Is no one gonna comment on the fact that Huck's back?
I'm curious as to which modern costume you'd like to see here.
I would have taken an MCU, an Ultimate, several others. I just can't abide the trunks outside the pants look.
I would have gone in for this one as well.
[img] 
[/img]
I would have replied earlier but the forum kept telling me I was banned. Did that happen to anyone else when they created a new account?
I will give Dan that. He is right that people would be complaining it isn't part of the campaign and that it shouldn't affect the price.
However this is Dan who also keeps saying Haslabs (Galactus and Fin Fang Foom) would be $500US if they did them today, while they are offering a highly detailed 24" Haslab figure for $200US. So I would take what he says about Haslabs with a tiny grain of salt.
Again, I do agree with him about the fact there would be complaints, but that is a given no matter what they do, and the lack of any sort of synergistic product being promoted seems like a missed opportunity.
Either way.....
Giant-Man:
6,211 / 10,000 (+135) 62.11% of funding goal with 5d 18h left.
Another daily increase over the previous day and back into triple digit daily gains. Seems to finally be picking up steam.
I think there's still an aversion on the ML's team to an honest post mortem of the EoV.
I said it at the time and I'm still saying it:
There's nothing wrong with pissing some people off. I don't think it hurts crowdfunding campaigns, which only need to succeed with a small audience. I don't think the EoV was hurt by people being pissed off or negative Youtube videos.
I think EoV failed because the team couldn't articulate a clear vision to 10,000 people that was louder than the people who were pissed off.
The campaign, if fully unlocked, would have included Robbie Reyes, RR Ghost Rider, Mephisto, Goblin Queen, and Damion Hellstrom.
There's no clear theme there aside from "spooky".
Nobody would want separate Robbie and GR figures. They wasted $25 of the price right there. They don't display together. Marvel Legends almost never makes secret identities so there's no place for Robbie to go.
Then there's Mephisto. Weird version. Okay. He is at least an enemy of Robbie's Avengers but they aren't really closely connected. That reveal shook things. It's not that it pissed people off. That's okay. Pissing people off isn't a threat to funding. But it's imprecise vision.
Then there's Maddie. WTF?! She's not related to anything else in the Haslab and the costume comes from one 2015 comic. It's not even a 616 Maddie. Someone Robbie's never met -- and not even the version from his universe.
By the time Damion rolled out, it was off the rails. He's met Robbie once but looked totally different and this is a mobile video game version. How did we end up with a Gamerverse figure?!
For comparison:
If Giant-Man was $300 and included Ant Man Pym in a lab coat, regular sized Giant Man, Yellowjacket, and Hank Pym Wasp? Okay!
If Giant-Man was $300 and leaned into the Avengers Anniversary theme? Okay! Maybe 60s Black Widow with the mask and fishnets, green Wonder Man, Swordsman, and Rick Jones! There's a theme!
If Giant-Man was $300 and included Micronauts Bug, Slingers Hornet, Red Locust from Captain America, and MCU GotG Holiday Special Mantis? Okay. That's a cute theme for a capsule or a wave and might diversify interest so different customers get different figures! But it's not a rational theme for a single purchase. Diversifying a Haslab's offerings is bad!
It's not any coherent sub-collection! It might as well be all red characters! Might as well do Erik the Red, first appearance Carol Danvers Ms. Marvel, Carnage Silver Surfer, and Mephisto! All because Giant-Man is red?
Again, you can piss off a million people if you appeal to 10k. But 10k people need a coherent vision so they can say, "Screw you guys, the Legends team as a plan!" It's only if there's no coherent vision that the doubters matter.
While I still think the ability for consistent negativity to influence behavior should not be excluded, this is a pretty solid analysis. I will add that the campaign was losing backers pretty early - it peaked right around one week, and basically only lost backers after the early bird was missed. All other things being equal, if they had made the early bird an individual choice rather than a collective action problem, they honestly might have had a successful campaign. Could say the same about the price price, different tiers, etc of course, so who's to say?
Anyway Giant-Man looks great and the price is right! Gimme my big 'ol toy.
New NYCC interview posted last night by Boog, and in it Ryan gave a very specific reason why they haven't shown the Wasp during the campaign that they've been teasing during every interview at the con:
Boog: I think that at least seeing some renders of Wasp or supporting characters now would probably help boost the campaign.
Ryan: You think so?
Boog: I think so.
Ryan: You think people would be able to conceptualize to see something and then be like "oh, I understand why that's a separate item," or it's like (Ryan cups his hands to his mouth like they're a megaphone) "THROW IT IN FOR FREE! EVERYTHING YOU SHOW US SHOULD NOW BE $200!" That's a trade-off, it's a gamble.
So it sounds like they were worried that if they showed a Wasp, or a scaled-down version of the HasLab, then despite the low campaign price people would still take being charged extra for supporting figures as a negative, whereas if they wait until after the campaign we're less likely to get pissed about paying for those separately.
I don't care either way, but I'm sure we'll be hearing some hot takes about that over the next few days. 😳
Wow. That's an extremely cynical view of the fanbase. I don't think he's right either. If they had put Wasp on the upcoming Avengers BaF wave, I think that would have made people want Giant Man more and would help his sales. They wouldn't be expecting her to be free, they'd see that she's coming in that wave. Hell they could have shown a whole retro Avengers wave with Yellowjacket in it too, as well as some other figures we need and say 'man these would sure go great with that Giant Man. Might want to ordre him while you can!" I mean, maybe just saying 'Oh we are selling Just Wasp by herself not attached to anything else, there could be that reaction, but not if you clearly include her in something bigger. I think that would just generate excitement.
Yep, "cynical" is the word I'd use for that explanation to not show her. There will always be idiots and someone angry on YouTube, but most of us are adults who comprehend how this line is run 22 years on.
I keep coming back to the idea that maybe 6" Legends collectors aren't the ideal market for a Haslab, period. We buy $7 figures on clearance. I'd bet we're the most price sensitive of all of Hasbro's action figure markets. I said I thought the EoV was too premium for Legends and that a lot of people who WANT a car might prefer a Bratz car.
I REGULARLY hold out to get figures half price with Legends.
Meanwhile, I pay over retail for Transformers and buy figures just to accessorize one another and occasionally 3rd Party upgrade kits. ML collectors buy cheap bootleg replacements for figures, not upgrade kits. Nobody's out there making upgraded hands and limbs. Maybe a few celebrity head sculpts but even then they run cheaper than most other lines' customs.
I honestly think maybe Legends is too much of a budget line to be compatible with Haslab unless there's no other way to do a character justice.
Whereas if they just set out to make a Mondo competitor 1/6 Spidey or maybe a Mezco/TBLeague style Wolverine with soft goods and seamless joints, I bet it'd go better than anything they've done.
I know there's an aversion to doing stuff like Optimus Prime or Spider-Man as Haslabs but that comes from the assumption that the figures are part of the retail line.
If you just made it a separate line of standalone pieces with limited worldbuilding, maybe they'd do better courting people other than us -- or at least engaging the part of us that collects other stuff.
The counter to that is the most successful Haslab of all time both in terms of $s and Units is Galactus and he was $400. I'd say we are more value-sensitive, not price sensitive. We're not just going to buy anything because they offer it. Sure, there are subsets of the fanbase that only buy on deep discounts, but the Marvel Legends fanbase is much larger than the Transformers fanbase (of which I am also a part of) so even not including those people, you still have plenty of other people willing to pay for something cool. I agree with the people who say that a $300 Giant Man with Pym, Yellowjacket, normal sized GM and Wasp would have funded already. They absolutely learned the wrong lesson from EoV. They didn't have to strip it down and offer something as cheap as possible. Go back to what worked for Galactus and Sentinel. Reasonable price, awesome six inch figures that go with the Haslab.
Though maybe they could eschew the tiers and just include that all in at the base price (since we now know for sure they are factoring that in anyway) and make the tiers smaller things such as articulated tiny wasp, antman and yellow jacket figures.
I'd say we are more value-sensitive, not price sensitive. We're not just going to buy anything because they offer it.
I think you nailed it. That's a great and accurate distinction.
the Marvel Legends fanbase is much larger than the Transformers fanbase (of which I am also a part of)
I don't think that's necessarily true. Yes, there's more Marvel fans than Transformers fans, but Legends aren't big really outside of the West (and even then its only a select few countries), but Hasbro sells alot of Transformers in Asia. It's not a coincidence that the size class offerings for generations grew with the explosiveness of the property within China. China and Asia as a whole is why Transformers can get a yearly $200 titan.
