I wasn't really defending Eddie. I was kind of more just stating that's who he is. He's not really playing anyone. He's just being a slightly more ass hole version of himself. And I know he definitely won't be having any 5 star matches. He's mediocre, at best, but he does at least try, which is more then I can say for some others *Goldberg, cough cough*. His promos and shit are just also kind of who he is. Those are his opinions. Everyone's is allowed to have one, whether we agree with them or not. I do think it makes it interesting that someone tries to call out people on their unbelievable gimmicks. But I don't think it really hurts anyone, at least when Eddie does it. Cena has alot more clout, so he definitely could get people fired. But Eddie just ranting and raving, no one is really gone care. They'll roll their eyes and move on. And if that's how he wants to do his career, more power to him. Probably won't be sustainable in the long run. 

Mox is about the same. He's not the best wrestler. But I see him actually putting in the work. He tries to put on good matches. Sometimes he succeeds, but it usually depends on who he is up against. I don't think he would really put on any 5 stars either unless he gets carried. But honestly he does at least entertain me more then most things WWE does. He isn't actually as mean as he puts on irl too. He is even more exaggerated. But his character is definitely better then some other ones I've watched. Anyone remember Tyler Brees? Cause I do, just because of how much I hated his existence.

@trunks3540 I wasn't implying you were defending Kingston. I was just using your post as a sort of jumping off point for some of my own thoughts/rants.

But I will also say that I don't really care what his opinions are. That's, for lack of a better phrasing, a terrible defense for what I was ranting about. In real life, Glenn Jacobs (Kane) has horrible fucking opinions. But it would have been absolutely idiotic of Vinnie Mac to give Kane, the character on television, a microphone and let him go be a weird Libertarian/Republican lunatic.

Ian McKellan does not like CGI and was kind of famously frustrated during the filming of Lord of the Rings. But would it have been appropriate for him to constantly turn to the camera and say 'isn't this silly?' and 'oh no, another CGI monster - better run!'  Of course not. You don't want your actor making fun of the movie they're in when you want the audience to take it seriously.

Wrestling is the same way. If you want the audience to be invested in these characters and take it seriously, you can't have your actors, and wrestlers are actors, suggesting or outright telling you NOT to take it seriously.

By way of comparison; Stone Cold was able to pull off a bad-ass character that could stand up to Undertaker and be like 'I'm not afraid of you!'  But he never really questioned whether or not Undertaker was actually an undead wizard. He never called out Undertaker's GIMMICK for being dumb. He constantly did great promos instead of saying 'promos are dumb because I'm such an every-man badass.'  Stone Cold played the character Eddie tries to play, WITHOUT de-legitimizing the product itself. He played himself AS a character in the fictional world of wrestling where the central conceit is that all of this is real.

I don't have a super strong opinion about Kingston but his gimmick/real personality - whatever it is - is not something I find interesting and mostly off-putting.

The whole "I'm a real wrestler/tough guy" thing is like the excessive blading at times or spots where people are stapling each other - it doesn't make things seem more real to me, but seem less real.

First, because it pulls me out of the match/promo as now I am thinking about the real people behind the characters more than the characters. Talking trash about someone's dead parents makes me think about that person in real life missing their parent, not the character needing motivation to beat the heel (Although I kind of get it - in those instances at least it is to get me to hate the person saying it for being so over-the-top savage, but still). Kingston promos doing the wrestler equivalent of "It's still real to me, dammit" meme falls into the same category - just odd for many of the reason KD says, because am I supposed to think less of everyone else on the roster as not being as "real" as him and Mox. "I love wrestling more than my wife" - well then you are an idiot Kingston. I half-believe he and Mox believe that foolishness, like they are doing something pure and noble while others are just play acting...you are getting paid to fake fight over mostly absurd storylines no matter who you are. 

Second, when it comes to the crazy violence, if someone starts hitting me with a barb-wire baseball bat, or staples things to me face, you know what I am not doing? I am not 2 minutes later trying to do a suplex to get a pin in a wresting match - I am either running away and calling the police, or I am trying to kill the other guy and not worrying about some match outcome. "They hate each other so much they are trying to murder each other; he broke that cinderblock over his head, now back in the ring, roll-up, 1,2, No, kicked out! Backdrop onto the broken glass, his back is ripped to shreds, now going for a submission, got his foot on the ropes, he has to release the hold on be DQed..." I know that has always been part of wrestling, but it can go too far and seems out of place for people to calling the play-by-play and have a referee and so on.

Pivoting here, I am declaring MJF as a resilient, underdog babyface champ a failure. Face MJF is possible - but he needs to be the cocky, brash face who has a mean streak and is on the edge. The odd couple storyline with Adam Cole worked by letting him still have the undercurrent of "do I trust him", but MJF being the sort of hero who nobly fights through any obstacle or injury just doesn't work for his strengths, in my opinion. And I guess the RoH tag belts are now held by people whose identity is hidden from their own employers...

My friend Dustin and I were discussing the RoH belt/devil situation. I'm sure we'll see whether we're right or not at the PPV, but we think it's the Kingdom under those masks, and now they are the RoH tag Champs again. Which also puts Adam Cole or Kyle Orielly under the devil mask. Either its Cole and he's betraying MJF for some reason or another, probably cause he didn't win the AEW World belt. Or it's Orielly and him and the Kingdom and Roddie are all pissed off with Cole for choosing MJF over them. It could be Roddie under the devil mask, but I don't know how well that would sit, I don't think that would be a good reveal. 

And if it's Jungle Jerk then it's gonna be such a letdown. The internet will rip Kahn a new one. Jack Perry deserves to be shoved out an airlock.

Honestly it was probably originally supposed to be CM Punk for when him and Tony Kahn worked their shit out, at least when the devil was first conceived. But since Punk signed with WWE after talking to them for like 2 days, and he was goded into flying off the deep end anyway by the elite, plans had to change. BTW, I am enjoying AEW immensely more without the Elite being there. Kenny is good, he's probably one of the best in the world still. But the other 3 annoy me to no end. Them losing their tag title shot was amazing. 

And Joe might win the belt off MJF cause that would fuel the fire of a feud between MJF and whoever the devil actually is, costing him to title. And with Adam Cole and the devil as well, if it isn't him to begin with. I can't see a hurt, down and out MJF beating Joe. But, they may let MJF keep the belt for a little while longer if he is still thinking about jumping ship to get him to stay. Although $$$ is more of a motivator then the belt i would think. And the "doing business with you" line possibly refers to Joe giving the devil a shot at the belt if he wins it off MJF. In return, the devil kind of left Joe alone, and even helped him against MJF. Not that he probably needed the motivation.

Or, if the devil isn't connected to MJF at all, whoever it may be, maybe they're just gonna something like the firm, or the APA were back in the day. Guns for hire. So many possibilities. Too bad I may not be able to watch it till Sunday or Monday. 

So Andrade is leaving AEW and it's kind of hilarious. Every person on earth saw this coming. There hasn't been a single dissenting voice in the wrestling reporter world saying 'no no, he's likely to re-sign with AEW.'  None. Everyone knew he was on his way out. And Khan still kept handing him victories instead of giving them to guys that could have USED the momentum instead of a guy so obviously on his way out that building him up was utterly and totally pointless.

Anyway.. the PPV was awful. But a big part of that is because the card was awful.

The Zero Hour stuff was pretty fun, although I'm pretty sick of watching Yuta lose matches. That's all the poor guy ever does. Especially against someone so PAINFULLY boring as Hook.

The first match was a bunch of guys from the Continental Classic against each other in a 4v4.
Why? Why does this match exist? Why did we need this? What did we get from this? Utterly and totally pointless. And like most 4v4 matches - not really worth watching and does nothing for anyone.

Miro v Andrade was really good, naturally. The quick turn by CJ is, as intimated above, probably because Tony Khan and his bookers were the only human beings to ever draw breath that DIDN'T expect Andrade to leave the company and since he's definitely leaving, they needed to do something with CJ because they'd already attached her to him for reasons I do not understand and are probably not good reasons anyway.
But it was still too soon, I think. Would have been better to have Miro over Andrade clean, and then have CJ 'fire' Andrade and find someone new to fight Miro. Could have kept this going a bit longer and made it more interesting.

Storm v Riho is.. I dunno. I like Riho but I'm not super impressed by her either, and I've also never been a big Storm fan. I like her new gimmick a lot, but as I've said previously I think her gimmick actually works way better if she's NOT champion. So right now this all feels directionless and distinctly not fun to watch.

Swerve v Rhodes was a filler match because Keith Lee is injured. Could have just given more time to a different match but they're really pushing Swerve right now so I guess they were determined to keep him on the card. Once again AEW looks stupid for somehow being blindsided that Lee wasn't cleared to wrestle and having to do a last minute swap. Fine match but.. meh. It was just a match because there's no story here, Dustin is not someone you can get excited about because it's not like his career is going anywhere at this point, and I don't like Swerve. So there you go; for me a very skippable whocares match.

Another 4 v 4 clusterfuck. Goddamn. Fucking stop this. Not EVERYONE has to be on every PPV. Awful. Ricky Starks sucks. Big Bill sucks. Darby sucks. And everyone else in this match deserves better than to be in this match.

Julia v Abadon was good but definitely the wrong approach to the finish. She NEEDS to win some matches clean. Like she used to. It's such a stupid fucking WWE-ism that the 'bad guy' has to cheat every single time to win. I hate it. And it's extra important here because Julia got to where she is on the rankings by -cleanly- winning most of her matches. Yet as champion she needs constant help and shennanigans. It's bad booking.

Copeland v. Cage was what you'd expect from these two professionals. Terrific. There was no good way out of this, really. You don't want Copeland to lose AGAIN, but it's not the right time to have Cage lose either. The decision they made is about as good as it was going to get and I actually really liked it. Kind of a unique twist on the 'money in the bank' concept and it worked really well. I just hope they don't drag this out for TOO long where the audience stops caring about the constant back-and-forth.

Mox v Kingston. Exactly what I expected, really. Two of AEW's worst wrestlers putting on one of the worst matches and there's no good ending because neither of these guys should win any titles.

Joe v MJF was ... a Joe match. I fucking HATE Samoa Joe (as a wrestler - I'm sure he's a fine person). His 'the ultra badass' shtick is boring and so try-hard that it's actually kind of pathetic. Yes EVERYONE is now a super badass because that's the only character type 'real men' will play in the ring, right? Pfft. Give me more Dalton Castles and Billy Gunns and Bryan Danielsons that can actually allow themselves to do something other than 'I'm a badass fighting man, grrrrrrr.'
MJF is legit injured right now so it's not surprising that he felt a little sluggish - but they worked it in to the story so that's really good.

I saw Adam Cole as the Devil coming a mile away but I didn't WANT it to be true. That's how good the MJF/Cole story has been. I was legitimately emotionally invested in those guys being BFFs. To the point where the big reveal hurt my heart. I was like 'NOOO, Adam, how could you?!' But it's the right direction and I'm excited to see where this goes.

Also.. the allegations against Chris Jericho are looking pretty grim. But not surprising from a guy, at the VERY least, married to an insurrectionist.

I personally loved the ppv. I enjoyed every match for the most part, for what they were. I knew Eddie and Mox wasn't gonna be a 5 star, so I didn't expect much. It was better then I anticipated. But it wasn't anything spectacular. I knew Eddie was gonna win.

The worst match on the card I think was probably Swerve and Dustin, and not because of performance. It was still a decent bout. But it just had no build up. It was thrown together last minute cause of Keith being hurt and you could tell. It was still not bad for a last minute change.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned I knew  Adam Cole was the devil and Joe was winning the AEW title. I know alot of people probably did. But I'm glad I wasn't going crazy when I saw the signs. Wardlow being there was a bit of a surprise but it makes sense. And when the acclaimed got manhandled by the devils minions I thought one looked oddly like Wardlow build wise. But there are a few guys who can look like that so I just shrugged it off as coincidence.

As for Jericho, this may be one of those things where I may end up having to seperate the art from the artist. He was one of my all time faves. And he has an amazing body of work. To see it possibly go down like it is, is sad. I had to do the same with Benoit. While Jerichos isn't as bad, it's still up there if true. Benoit was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. I don't care what anyone says. It doesn't excuse what he did in the end. But in the ring he was phenomenal. And his whole legacy is marred by his psychotic break and subsequent fallout. I will still forever revere him as one of my favorite wrestlers and one of the best, just like Jericho. But as a human being, he was a piece of shit. Jericho being a rock star, and as famous as he is, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten any skeletons called out sooner. Most famous people are ass holes in one way or another. And most of them have skeletons in their closet that may bring about their downfall. But I personally can't let it affect my enjoyment of the product, whatever it may be. If we stopped watching anything that piece of shit people do, there would be nothing left to watch. 90% of Hollywood are ass holes who do some bad thing or another. Doesn't mean we should stop watching movies, TV, ect...

I can name quite a few actors/writers/directors i know are bad people irl. Mel Gibson, Christian Bale, Sylvester Stalone, Joss Whedon, Nicolas Cage, Wesley Snipes, Edward Norton, ect.. The list goes on. Doesn't mean their movies aren't really good. Some of them are among my favorites. I mean Harvey Weinstein won Oscars, and he's probably about as low a piece of shit as you can be. But the movies were good. Singers, wrestlers, actors, politicians, it doesn't matter, most people like that are just terrible. Doesn't mean I'm gonna stop watching literally everything, or listening to music. And I will admit when something is good, even if the source is garbage. Bad people can have good accomplishments.

And honestly, there are probably alot more wrestlers out there that have done worse that aren't as good that stuck around. I've read some really bad shit about Ric Flair. Supposedly Steve Austin was an Alcoholic wife beater. Brett Hart is a giant dick. As was Owen iirc. Shawn Micheals is also not a very good person. Hulk Hogan single handedly took down WCW because of his insanity. Not to mention he's a racist douche bag. The Rock has been involved in this whole fire relief effort scandal, but in his defense I don't think he knew what he was getting into with Oprah. Still, he's a big Hollywood celeb now too, and sometimes he's nice to the fans and other people. And sometimes he can be a Twat. Edge and Lita screwed over Matt Hardy in the worst way. These people all kept their jobs, and are regarded as some of the best of all time. So if this shit with Jericho is true, which I'm sure at least some of it is, then I will lose alot of respect for the man. But I will still regard him as one of the best. And continue to watch what is probably close to the end of his career anyway. And I honestly am not sure where the line should be drawn. Buy that's probably for each person themselves to decide.

So AEW has "dropped" MJF from the active roster page supposedly. I assume they are trying to make the "MJF is a free agent" thing into a storyline - so making it look "real" but removing his bio. I am curious about the endgame to that, and by curious, I mean I don't see how this will work out well as a storyline. I feel if the goal for him returning will be "cheer me, I picked AEW over WWE", that seems like the sort of inside baseball storyline that only matters if you care about AEW "winning" over WWE in some way.

Andrade had a kind-of-brief run on the main WWE roster where I thought he looked like a future star, but after he was out for a bit due to the wellness policy violation he never seemed to recover. I don't think WWE needs him, but could see him returning if Charlotte asks for it.

I also liked the MJF is friends with Cole storyline, and it slowly turning MJF into a semi-decent human being (but not fully) was a good way to go with his character of never quite being a full face. The one problem I have with things like The Devil storyline in wrestling is that heels (and even faces) can beat someone up backstage anytime they want and get a title shot out of it, you don't need month long plots to turn on someone. 

If they had set up that the 8 wrestlers not in the Continental Classic final would be in an 8-man match with some stakes - like the winner of the 8-man gets the first title shot from the Champ - then the match might have made some sense. But Tony needs to cut a couple of matches from these PPVs, and not have something like Swerve vs Rhodes go on for 10+ minutes - of course why you announce Swerve vs Lee a week before when one guy isn't cleared is baffling to me anyway.  

I've always kind of liked Samoa Joe - unlike Kingston who comes across like "tough guy" bluster, Joe seems more legit intimidating, legit ornery (to me at least) - I guess that works for Joe better than Kingston, who seems like the uncle that gets drunk and into a fight at a high school football game with another parent over something stupid. 

Where Jericho is concerned; I mean there's an argument to be made that you can't discount an entire body of work and blah blah. But I'm actually deeply uncomfortable with how people misuse/misapply the 'death of the author' in order to give themselves a free pass to engage in behaviour that directly supports/benefits abusers. So that's something, in my opinion, we should be careful about.
I'll also specifically say that 'Bret is a dick' or 'Owen was a jerk' (something I've literally never heard a single person ever suggest, ever - because everyone says Owen was one of the sweetest guys to ever enter the business) being in the same conversation as someone being accused of sexual assault is disgusting and I'd really suggest re-thinking that approach to the topic. You can't equate those things in ANY way.

A serial sexual abuser does not, in ANY way, deserve the same considerations as that guy that was 'a bit of a twat.'

Jericho is innocent until proven otherwise - and that includes a preponderance of the evidence, in my opinion, since these matters are RARELY brought into court for a variety of both good and some very gross and sad reasons. I'm already disgusted enough that AEW has brought in Ric Flair. If they also refuse to deal with Jericho's misconduct, if more comes to light and it becomes harder to deny, then I'll be done with AEW and not feel the least bad about it.

Agree about MJF. It's a total work and only even appeals to people that read all the dirtsheets and understand what's happening. It's not a great way to appeal to a broader audience, but then again I don't even know if AEW has a 'broader audience.'  I think the idea of the 'casual wrestling fan' is about as mythical as the idea of the 'casual toy collector.'  That being said - I don't really care about a 'bidding war' and I think it makes for a stupid storyline.

Undoubtedly Andrade is going back to be with Charlotte even if that means not being a major player. There's rumblings Malakai will do the same for his wife once his AEW contract is up. Wish them the best, regardless of where they go, because I do totally get how hard it must be married to someone and both of you have traveling jobs. Must be super tough.

You can definitely 'get a shot' whenever just by attacking the right people. I think the 'turn on your friend' long-game angle is, narratively, supposed to be about throwing the champ off their game and creating a weakness you can exploit. It's one thing to just be like 'I hate you, give me a match.'  That's a match you go into on equal footing. Totally different to break that person's heart and spirit and then force them to fight you right after. Now.. why Cole would turn on MJF specifically to put the title on Joe is a head-scratcher. If we're supposed to believe the fiction of the wrestling world - everyone is scared of Joe and he's a total unstoppable badass monster. If the deal is that Cole puts the title on Joe and then is guaranteed a match for himself later... I mean? What? When he was friends with MJF he could have just asked his best bud for a rematch in the future and it's clear from the bro-love that he would have gotten it. Against what amounts to a very good, but fairly normal opponent.
Instead Cole -wants- to fight the 'super badass scary guy?'  Doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe they'll make sense of it later.

And for the record about tough-guy characters; I think they can work. Stone Cold is the one I've used a lot as an example of it done right. But there's been quite a few - even Bret Hart was a pretty hard-nosed tough guy type character. The difference is that GOOD tough-guy characters can be tough without ruining everyone else's gimmick and angle. Stone Cold could show a little bit of fear when Undertaker showed up but he'd still fight him and not back down. But shitty tough-guy bullshit characters like Joe, Mox, and Kingston only show how tough they are by insulting other peoples' gimmicks and insulting the idea of pro-wrestling and the fictional narrative we've all agreed to sit here and enjoy.
And it REEKS of fragile masculinity from a bunch of losers that cannot handle the thought of the crowd thinking they, in real life, aren't the toughest guy in the room. And that kind of pitiful fragility makes me think those guys are very distinctly not tough, which only further shatters all the agreed-upon fiction of the wrestling universe they live in.

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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Jericho is innocent until proven otherwise - and that includes a preponderance of the evidence, in my opinion, since these matters are RARELY brought into court for a variety of both good and some very gross and sad reasons. 

Hard to know in this case, so far it seems like some broad accusations (and comparing anyone to Weinstein as the reporter did needs to be a very careful comparison, given his crimes - that is a comparison you need to be able to back up if you throw that out there) and a few likes to tweets and that's the story. I think it is fair to wait and see on this one - not giving him the benefit of the doubt per se, but until there is more of a detailed account/accusation it is hard to know what happened. I will say this, I believe that if there is an NDA in place, then as long as Tony and Chris say nothing (if they are part of the NDA), they are keeping the window closed for anyone else to say anything - once one person breaches an agreement, I believe the others are free to respond. So if anything did happen, it might never come out unless the female wrestler decides to say more, and she may not be comfortable doing so in case it burns bridges for her - otherwise someone else would need to come forward, if there is a pattern. 

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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Agree about MJF. It's a total work and only even appeals to people that read all the dirtsheets and understand what's happening. It's not a great way to appeal to a broader audience, but then again I don't even know if AEW has a 'broader audience.'  I think the idea of the 'casual wrestling fan' is about as mythical as the idea of the 'casual toy collector.'  That being said - I don't really care about a 'bidding war' and I think it makes for a stupid storyline.

I like it when they steer into controversy/real life to some extent - I think the idea that many of the WWE stars are skeptical about Punk is a good example where it plays off and heightens the interest in his return, by cooking what seems to be real life "feuds" into the story. But in this case, what is the storyline benefit to the audience - MJF returns is a story that only matters for AEW, and how is it in AEW's best interest to say their top star is considering getting a better deal elsewhere? It seems like WWE could kill this whole storyline dead by stating that they are not negotiating with MJF, if AEW pushes the narrative too much.

And as you say, what's the upside to Cole having Samoa Joe get the title, if he was not part of the group?

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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But shitty tough-guy bullshit characters like Joe, Mox, and Kingston only show how tough they are by insulting other peoples' gimmicks and insulting the idea of pro-wrestling and the fictional narrative we've all agreed to sit here and enjoy.

I guess I don't put Joe in that same category as Mox and Kingston, but I'll admit I may have missed that tendency in his promos. Joe at least doesn't do much of the garbage style where the amount of legit punishment you take or give isn't supposed to mean you are truly tough (and not just stupid or unable to get over without it). But not going to argue about it.

Rock vs Roman will not be a great match, or even a good one, but if you want to have Roman beat him down mercilessly to the point that the remaining Bloodline and the elders turn on him (Roman wins the battle, loses the war) so he is without backup at Wrestlemania - I could see that (and I think they need Roman to be able to win clean and be vicious on his own for a bit, as right now he seems to be too supported that it makes him look weak). But I am curious if they want Roman to pass Hogan as second longest title reign, which means Roman will hold onto the belt at Wrestlemania 40. I am suspicious they want to drag out Rhodes vs Roman a bit longer, have Rhodes not win the Rumble, not win Elimination Chamber, keep getting denied from his rematch by other faces so he can't fully complain about it...? 

Putting the just shitty guys in the same category as sex abusers wasn't my exact intention. I was more just saying, people as a whole are terrible. Most famous people are even more terrible, cause they think they can get away with anything. So while I hope it's not true, in Jerichos case, I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Anytime I hear about any famous person doing dumb, terrible, or illegal shit, I'm not surprised.

From the places I've read about it, what it seems like is he hit on Kylie, she said no, and that was the end of it. But that's what it *seems* like. Possibly cause of an NDA, which Jericho said he never actually signed any. But maybe he came on strong. Maybe he threatened her career, told her she'd be fired if she said no. Maybe he made physical contact, or showed her something. Or maybe he just said let's bang and she said no and that was in fact the end of it. I would think, since he's a rock star, and a wrestling legend, and basically a celebrity, he could probably go too far and think nothing bads gonna happen cause he can just pay his way out. Do I think he raped her? Probably not. Did he mayhaps try to touch her in places and coerce her like a drunk college kid, possibly. But we may never know. It was possibly enough for her to quit.

And the whole him being married thing doesn't matter sometimes. Maybe they have an open relationship. Maybe his wife knows and doesn't care. Or maybe he just wants to cheat on her cause she's a raging c u next tuesday insurrectionist and he's over it. I don't think the married thing should really be an issue for any of these things anymore. Not with how relationships are by today's standards. Polyamory is a word lol.

And I read all kinda of stuff on backstage antics and goings on. I haven't heard alot of bad things about Owen. But I do remember someone saying he was a jerk to them 1 time or another. It was so long ago, my memory isn't what it once was. But nothing like what other people do. He wasn't An abuser or complete twat or whatever. Bret Hart is definitely a bit of a dick though. You can see it in his interviews. But to be fair to him, and I guess I should've wrote this as the caveat anyway, he kind of has a right to be. He was royally screwed by WWE, and then kind of screwed over by WCW. He himself even said he wouldn't talk to Vince for the longest time. Not that I'd want to either. But he really hated the guy. He was consumed with anger. Seems like in his older age he's gotten softer. But you can still hear the anger in his voice sometimes when he talks about it. He's also a little entitled. He was good. But it seems like he thinks he's on the Mt Rushmore of wrestling. He's not even top 10. Maybe not even top 20. And there are a billion other stories that come out about a billion other wrestlers, alot of them aren't good people. Some are. Undertaker is a class act. Bryan is pretty decent of a guy. Eddie Guerrero was pretty cool too I heard. Just never know sometimes.

@fac  Regarding Jericho - it's unlikely we'll ever know. Or at least not anytime soon enough for it to really matter. Unless Jericho is going to go full Ric Flair, he'll be retired before anyone has the guts to speak up. But IF something comes of this, I want to see real consequences for once. I'm so tired of wrestlers getting away with everything because wrestling fans are gross and trip over their own fucking dicks in their hurry to make excuses for wrestlers they like, no matter how heinous they are as people. The fact that people STILL bang on about how much they love Benoit, while adding tiny caveats of 'oh, but he did a naughty' at the end is fucking vile.

For the Rock... I just don't care. He was never a -great- wrestler and he's barely even -decent- with 20 pounds of ring rust and a once-every-two-years wrestling schedule. People will love it because it's spectacle, and they'll cheer him like crazy when he does the same tired shtick that was getting tired 20 years ago before he left wrestling to be an actor. But people enjoy it so whatever. I just wish they'd find better ways to use guys like him than main eventing PPVs and wrestling for major titles. Part-timers have no business, in my opinion, taking those spots that other guys have worked their asses off to earn by actually working all year.
That being said, I have NO idea what their plan with all this is now, and I'd be surprised if WWE really had a solid plan. I think Cody is the most deserving of having his win at WM. But I don't see how you bring Punk OR The Rock into the company at the end of the year without a plan for them to main event WM. So.... it's VERY rare for me to not have any idea what's gonna happen because I can usually predict this stuff a mile away, but I've got no idea.

To be fair, too, I don't actually watch WWE programming - I just keep up with it on the news sites and such. I've sworn off WWE for a multitude of reasons and I don't see any of this bringing me back.

I am sort of indifferent to Bret Hart. I understand what he did for the industry, but I never really cared about him one way or the other. I just don't think he's top tier. Like I said, he was good. But I don't think he was Bryan Danielson good. Not on the same level as Undertaker or HHH. I feel HBK is a little overrated as well. But he has alot of charisma and can tell a story. And I don't think Bret had as much of that either. He didn't bore me like most of WWE does. But I was never like "Ow wow Bret Hart. Can't wait to see that." He was definitely a good technical wrestler. Maybe he was just slightly before my time. Maybe that's why I don't care as much. I started around the time Jericho started in WWF. So I think that was right after Bret was basically done.

FYI, I do not like Goldberg. I will not like Goldberg. He is trash. He will always be trash. He's an accident that has already happend multiple times. He knows like 4 moves, and he always screws up 3 of them. He has the personality of a brick wall. The only thing he had going for him was his physique, and eventually that will fade. He should've never been in a ring. And what he's done to some of the others that actually deserved to be there is sad. 

I was definitely going to say Trunks that your opinion of Bret Hart is 100% colored by the fact that you weren't a fan while he was actively doing his thing.   Bret is definitely one of the greatest wrestlers to ever do it and was easily one of my favorite wrestlers to watch.   So mayn of his matches were epic and his technical skill in the ring was unmatched by anyone in the company.    To say he wasn't on the level of Undertaker or Triple H is crazy and only something you can say because his career got truncated by companies he worked for and he didn't get the later career situation set-up that those other guys had.   

But then again great technical wrestlers often get a raw deal in the big promotions.   If skill in the ring is all that mattered Dolph Ziggler would be one of the most decorated champions in the WWE.   He was so skilled at putting other guys over though that he just got used to bump others and never really broke through.  I mean he had a long run but always as more of a mid tier guy who got used to sell whoever the company wanted to push.   

I was always thankful that somehow Danielson was able to translate his in ring talent into true success in the business.

Yea that's probably it. I watched a few docs that had him in it and some of his interviews and nothing really stood out to me for him. But I did see he got treated awful by both WWF at the time and WCW. So maybe it's good I didn't see all that go down live. Cause if I did end up watching him and liking him, I probably would've been pissed to no end.

I feel for Ziggler. I see all the talent in the world held back by bad booking and terrible storylines. Like they shipped him with Vicki Guerrero. Why? Manager Vicki, sure, that's fine. But making him Vicki's boy toy? And that's how he got his first World Title. And, I'm not 100% sure, but I think he was also the first money in the bank winner to lose his cash in. It was so long ago. I hope if he does end up in AEW they treat him better. But their roster is so stacked I can't even imagine where he would fit. And I doubt they'd put him in the World title picture, ever. I think he'd be a good fit for the TNT belt. But right now E and C are fighting over that.

Bret was a bit of an anomaly in that his character was never really larger than life in a period when WWF still had many crazy gimmicks that aimed for that.

Personally, I think if him one of the most consistent faces of WWF after peak Hogan and before Austin/Rock - so mid-80's to mid-90's. Along with Shawn Michaels, both seemed to be "real" post-Hogan/Warrior and believable unlike the Undertaker on terms of wrestling being a "sport". Bret was hugely popular among the type of fans who were invested in workrate and in-ring action, but he was a little too low key and lacking in the sort of charisma that would have led to the type of mainstream success you had with Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena (and Michaels if he had handled it better). Danielson, Cody Rhodes, but probably more AJ Styles, are good comparisons to Bret for me. 

Bret comes across as a bit of a mark for himself at times (as was Shawn, which is why they clashed in addition to being different personalities I suspect) - but some of that (like Cody) is being a bit of a mark for his family name and legacy, which is understandable honestly. 

I find it interesting about how people view The Undertaker, who was not a favorite of "smart" fans at the start, as he seemed like more of the circus silliness which guys like Bret and Shawn and later ECW and Angle and Guererro and Malenko and so on were avoiding in the post-Hogan-as-superhero era. Ultimately Austin, Rock and Cena foud  the right mix of an extreme personality but still "normal guy" and those characters exploded and were not viewed as living cartoons in quite the way WWF in the 80's was for the most part.