Justice League Snyder Cut

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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:29 am

Don't have time to read everyone's comments atm, but I will say tonally, it was more solid.
Spoiler! :
The Aquasingers was pretty [email protected]#$ stupid, and man did it slog for the first hour or so. It did pick up and I enjoyed the latter 2 hours pretty well. The epilogue actually made me want a sequel, though that will never happen. Better than the Whedon cut, but still had a lot of issues. Esp. at the beginning.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:04 am

I'll gladly eat skeptic crow with this film. I actually really enjoyed it overall. There are some issues with it that stem from Snyder's directing style but outside of that I felt the whole was a real solid piece that somehow balanced the, honestly unneeded, darker tone of his DCU with a hopefulness you'd get from the comics.
Spoiler! :
Some things I enjoyed:

- Steppenwolf and anything involving Darkseid and his legions were a treat to watch. Outside of the weird mixing on his voice which really stood out to me in a not-good way, I liked him way better this time around. Intimidating, actually having character and motivation outside of just doing what Darkseid bids, a WAY better final fight and death than in the theatrical cut. I actually want his Mcfarlane figure now.

- Batman wasn't the joke he was the first time. They revamped a lot of his scenes in a great way. The problem the first movie had was that it literally had no idea how to handle him compared to the metas around him so it was treated like a joke. Here, he's actually badass as well as being that spark of hope that keeps the team together throughout the film. I love how he just tells Alfred he just has faith when it comes to things like Superman returning to help them fight. It felt right for him with how trusting of Supes the character is in most media.

- The four hours made for way better story pacing and flow. Moments made sense. Interactions made sense. Exposition made sense. Nothing felt all that out of nowhere tonally. Visually...I have a small issue on that front, but as a story told from start to finish it was definitely solid.

Some things I didn't like:

- Shots and scenes that had Snyder written all over it. Long slow-motion shots with licensed music playing over it that drag on far too long. Weird moments that also drag scenes on for too long as well, like the women singing as Aquaman heads into the ocean and one of them picks up his sweater and takes a giant whiff of it? Like why? For what reason? Most of these instances could have been cut and we'd lose nothing.

- There are some weird cuts in the first half that you can tell were where they spliced scenes from the theatrical cut in with newly-filmed scenes. Usually in the form of really jarring transitions.

- A lot of the CG shots just did not look good. They don't blend well into scenes so while I could deal with most of it, I can easily see how a lot of it could break the immersion when things look too video game-y.

- I feel that the movie can get a bit too violent in some places? Though maybe that's just me. Like I love how they updated the intro fight for Wonder Woman but at the same time stuff like her not thinking twice about picking a normal guy up, hurling him at a wall so hard it leaves a bloodied crater and him in a pool of blood on the floor and then clashes her cuffs together and essentially decimates all the people in front of her felt really off...Especially when it's followed with a very Wonder Woman moment with her reassuring the hostages.

- I still am iffy over Ezra Miller's Flash since his intro and his meeting with Bruce still had this annoying air to him that I didn't like in the original cut. I don't like the neurotic take on Barry they have going, but practically all of the shots with him after are toned down and feel way more natural. While there are still aspects of this version of the character I don't like (Like how he sounds like he's gonna cry like a baby during the peak of the climax), I don't dislike him as much as I did before. So that's a plus.
It sucks that we'll probably never see a sequel to this. I'd actually love one.
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Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:34 am

Whelp that’s done.

Honestly if I had seen this first then a Whedon version...yeah that’s stupid but WB makes crazy choices... they’d be about the same. One would be longer.

The tone was much more positive than I expected for Snyder. And I can celebrate he was able to make it “for Autumn” which really puts things in perspective. Thugs and bugs going splat and laying in their blood or goo didn’t bother me. Harsh curse words seemed more “kick ass” than anything really. Kind of dumb and just put there cause he can. I guess make it rated R. Whatever. I don’t think Snyder’s vision of these characters is all that interesting up to this point. Alfred. Alfred is interesting in all these films. That’s about it.

I’ll use Spoiler tags since this just came out but you pretty much saw this already.
Spoiler! :
It was really slow. I thought there would have been more of a twist but came down to bad warrior took on more than he could chew. There was so much I just didn’t get. And the Lois tease is never paid off really. I mean not really at all. I guess that changed in the writing.

Darkseid was dumb. Sorry. Less a threat than Steppenwolf. I’m not sure why the Greek gods needed Amazons, Atlanteans, or human barbarians. Zeus fried Darkseid and Ares caused a massive bleeding wound with a axe. Then the armada packed up and left. Eh. I mean I didn’t see that character on film to be more than a brute who his band of thugs who worshipped him tucked tail and fled when their alpha got his azz handed to him. No intelligence. No cunning. No depth. I could care less about seeing more of that.

The Motherbox awakening was dumb too. The whole sequence that is the main plot of this film was shallow. But that’s been discussed since we saw the Superman alarm clock trailer. Why wait till Superman died? But I guess it makes about as much sense as Thanos not just Showing up in his armada taking the Tesseract when he discovered it. It’s a narrative to introduce the McGuffen then end the story. This and Whedon’s films felt like they accelerated the time table. Skk ok it was less rewarding.

I did like the parallels they did with mythological stories. The Mother boxes being like the three Oracles or mythic witches was interesting I guess. I didn’t quite get their need for unity. But it’s no dumber than Infinity Gems creating the magic wish opportunity.

And hold on...did Mera tell Arthur that her parents were killed in a Great War and she was adopted by Attlana? Did I hear that right? So Mera is Aquaman’s adopted sister? Surely I heard that wrong...

The action sequences were cool. It was more connected. The Justice league all got to take their shots out on Steppenwolf. I mean it wasn’t just Supes beating him up. Wonder Woman decapitating him was funny to me. Supes laser eyed his horn off. It was really just as dumb as Whedon’s end fight. So time to end the film, kill the baddie.

So I guess I enjoyed watching it. I’ll probably not watch it again. No interest in the toys. Pretty eh to me.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:24 pm

First Wonder Woman fight still pisses me off...
Spoiler! :
I was really hoping this was going to be fixed. She's told there are 4 bombs, but she never goes after the others, nor do we here about them again. The last baddie; she can block 30 automatic shots while moving across the floor saving kids, no problem. But when he has to reload by ejecting the magazine, grabbing a new one, slap it in, and get it up to fire again, all she can do is slam her bracelets together shooting a ton of debris out on the street potentially killing people outside? What the [email protected]#$?
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:59 pm

TFitz wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:24 pm
First Wonder Woman fight still pisses me off...
Spoiler! :
I was really hoping this was going to be fixed. She's told there are 4 bombs, but she never goes after the others, nor do we here about them again. The last baddie; she can block 30 automatic shots while moving across the floor saving kids, no problem. But when he has to reload by ejecting the magazine, grabbing a new one, slap it in, and get it up to fire again, all she can do is slam her bracelets together shooting a ton of debris out on the street potentially killing people outside? What the [email protected]#$?
Spoiler! :
Agreed - the initial section where she is throwing the bad guys around you can justify given the time crunch so she can't hold back - even the guy whose head hits the wall - but the last guy is pure vengeance plus the possible collateral damage outside (or if the building collapses, those inside). Not in her character really.

I get the feeling that this was an instance where the filmmakers had a great visual they wanted to use - in this case to establish the power of the bracelets coming together for later - and had to find a reason for it.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Ok, watched it...and since we are all coming here to share our feelings I'll join in.

I liked it, it's a much improved presentation of essentially the same story. I've watched it once and plan on watching it again but as I'm going through it the first time I couldn't help to think about how editing can change how a story feels. Tons of scenes in this movie are essentially the same as the theatrical cut, but a few changes to dialogue, changing the order in which they are placed in the movie makes a world of difference.

The run time is long but it works in this movie. Characters were given time to breath and grow. In the absence of a stand alone Cyborg and Flash film you really do need a 4 hour run time. Aquaman didn't have his stand alone movie yet when this was originally made so you need those scenes to develop his character more as well.

This movie could have absolutely been between 2-3 hours....if you bothered to give those characters their own solo intro before this movie. But WB wanted to rush to the team up movie and this seems like Snyder and the other writers working within those restrictions.
Spoiler! :
So the plot is exactly the same when it comes down to it. Steppenwolf needs the 3 mother boxes because end of the world stuff. It's a basic plot but it worked better this way. Having Steppenwolf trying to get back on Darkseid's good graces works for me. Him getting each of the mother boxes played out so much better this time. He both felt like a bigger threat AND it seemed harder for him to acquire them. That's what felt really dumn in the Whedon cut. Because the theatrical cut doesn't have room to breath he gets the first one...then immediately gets the second one....and before we know it he picks up the last one after they bring Superman back. There's no tension, no build. The fight with the Amazons this time felt earned. Figuring out the Atlantians had another was more of a task. Getting the last one...nice to see Miles Dyson try to make it difficult for him....and clever to put a "tracker" on it.

Changing the order of the scenes worked better too. For example, in the theatrical cut, we open with Batman beating up a thug on the rooftop, him trying to lure a parademon with fear....then he decides to start putting this team together....and then the next time we see him he's on horseback. It just feels off because there's no sense of urgency in the theatrical cut. Clearly he knows stuff is already happening and he's taking his sweet time. In this cut, we start with him going to recruit Aquaman first, he doesn't know trouble is already here he's trying to be proactive based on what he learned from Luthor. There's also the throw away line about how he came over the mountain to get there and the area being inaccessible by copter during this weather. It's a minor thing but it all helps. In the theatrical cut you're left wondering why he didn't just fly there in one of his Bat-craft's AND especially why he didn't if this was a race against time. Bruce being in the dark on the timeline works better here and the subsequent scenes make it sound like he's been piecing things together for a while as far as tracking down members. In the theatrical cut it just felt like he was sitting on this information all along and waited until after the fact to put together the team.

So many scenes played out like this and it's just fascinating how moving stuff around changes the narrative pace and makes things flow better.

The beginning of the movies largely follows the same beats but I was surprised how the movie changed towards the end. The whole final battle played out much better here with an actual plan...and what do you know, each person having an actual task that matters. Working together. It was nice to contrast that with them not having a plan and winging it against Steppenwolf the first time. I like that they upped Steppenwolf's power a bit so WW is slightly overmatched. It felt off that they needed Superman before when WW seemed to handle Steppenwolf fine on her own. Even once Superman was back, the rest of the team still had stuff to do and Superman couldn't just do everything for them.

Cyborg seeing the dangers of bringing Superman back was nice. The Flash doing something risky was nice. Brunch was a stupid joke that apparently we can thank Whedon for. The post apocalyptic future really helped the narrative of all of these movies. This isn't my favorite interpretation of DC but I would have liked to see JL 2 and 3 to complete Darkseid's war.
One thing I don't get in the movie...why did Superman have the black suit? Seemed like there wasn't a reason other than it looked cool. He could have picked up any other suit he wanted.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:37 pm

Got a few more thoughts after thinking about the movie more and seeing and hearing other opinions:
Spoiler! :
- I've heard complaints that the character arc Flash had in the 2017 cut was removed and made the character less interesting or gave him less purpose. I disagree. While I did like Batman's pep-talk to him in 2017 about saving one person, I felt the whole Flash "I'm not a hero" thing just made no sense. You see yourself as a guy with powers who stops petty crimes when they happen...Okay? So why do you literally have a lair and superhero costume? It's like if Stark went to recruit Peter in Civil War and he already had a ton of gadgets and an advanced suit but talks like he doesn't see himself as a superhero. If you don't see yourself as a hero, why are you going about things like one? In hindsight it didn't make any sense and I'm glad it didn't return here. Instead they give Flash more of an arc about self-worth. Can he do this? Going from protecting Central City to saving the whole world and essentially stopping the apocalypse? And it paying off with him breaking his own rules when it came to using the Speed Force and elevating as a hero. And it also setting up what he can do with time-travel worked well, too. It was a much better arc for Flash this time.

- Speaking of Flash, I still...kinda don't like how super-speed is depicted in film when it comes to characters like him or Fox Quicksilver. It actually really dislike the angle of "super speed = everything freezes while the speedster moves normally" cause it gets really uninteresting. Even more-so when it's combined with Snyder's addiction to cinematic slow-motion. It makes Barry feel slow when he should be the opposite. While I do think there are some great shots that put his speed into a cooler-looking form (Him running beside the Batmobile with Cyborg and WW flying in on the opposite side was SUCH a great example), it still feels like they're not super-knowledgeable about putting super-speed to film for Flash. I hope the stand-alone changes that.

- As cool as Martian Manhunter is, his inclusion here probably felt the most shoe-horny. Don't get me wrong, I love that he exists and acts like how I'd imagine he'd act: Kind, optimistic, full of heart, but his inclusion probably could have just been an epilogue teaser. Have him meet Bruce as the general from MoS talking about oncoming threats, drop Darkseid's name, Bruce questions how he knows who that is, he morphed into MM, introduces himself, etc, end scene. Could have just kept the Martha/Lois scene without that reveal and it would have held more meaning than it did as the two actual people closest to Superman come to terms with him being gone and prepare to move on.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:52 pm

I’ve had another thought, having digested it a bit.
Spoiler! :
ZS really should have used hindsight when cutting it together, he has the benefit of 4 years of people analysing what worked and what didn’t, plus 2-3 films featuring the other heroes. What he did instead was pretend none of it happened and stuck on his first idea.

Cut out the introductory parts involving Aquaman, this has been covered in his solo film. Cut out the entire Wonder Woman bomb scene, it just doesn’t really work, let’s meet her when she’s working at the museum and sees the news on the tv (bbc news in English, in France, sure why not). We’ve already seen a bunch about her in her 2 solo films, no need to go over it again. The whole Thermyscria? Amazon scene needs to be shorter, jump straight to the Queen arriving, have her being told what’s happening be a proxy for the audience. Steppie appears, doesn’t bother with a speech, just attacks and gives chase. Too much time spent doing a ceremony to shoot a damn arrow. Also speed up WW finding it in person then seeing the Darkseid Mural. Or just have the Queen visit Diana and explain it, then he could keep the flashback where the armies of middle earth attack Sauron.
There’s alien invaders killing people and stealing rubix cubes and there’s simply no urgency expressed by the other characters. They genuinely just resume the conversations they were having before the boxes were stolen.
Flash’s job interview is tonally jarring, skip that scene and chuck it in his solo film. Maybe just keep his scene with his dad, but jump straight to Bruce meeting him.
Cyborg, a bit one note, however I’d argue that his introductory bits are necessary. We’ve no context for him or his powers. Still needs tightening up, too much slow mo football and glowering at his father. Keep the absent father and breaking the rules to help people who need it. The scenes where he’s ‘hacking’ I thought were too weird at first, but they don’t bother me as much in hindsight.
Lois I’m sad to say is completely redundant up until meeting Clark, would’ve had far more impact to make the her first appearance, and defusing Clark’s rage. The role is wasted on Amy Adams. Leave the Marthan Manhunter for the end, or leave him out completely since he did nothing to help the Justice League. ALL HE DID WAS PEP TALK LOIS.
Once everyone’s on the same page, it actually gets ok.

Apart from this scene that actually happened
Image
Was that an homage? Was it a “no hard feelings Joss” from Zack?

Anyway, the rest of the film plays just fine, all up until the Knightmare sequence that apparently is in a different timeline to the Knightmare sequence from BvS since Batman dies in that one.
What’s the point behind those? Wasn’t the reasoning given by Snyder that Bruce was being manipulated by Darkseid into seeing Clark as a bad guy?
Who’s responsible for this new one? Or can Batman see possible futures now?

Oh, just leave out the Lex Luther bit entirely. As cool as Deathstroke looked in his armour, it was completely redundant for this film. Batman just fought a demigod, setting up a confrontation with an ordinary albeit very skilled human doesn’t work.

Anyway, so much of this film should have been left out or put in other films. He clearly wanted to be in charge of how the DC movie universe played out but he doesn’t have the writing or editing talent to do it. He need last to be reeled I’m not indulged.
He can present visuals pretty well, but he needs to be kept in the directors chair. Give him a good story, a brief one, and let him adapt it to film 90-120 mins max.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:29 pm

I heard Chris Jericho is going to play Darkseid in the next movie. He has the chest for it.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:04 pm

Benedict wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:52 pm
I’ve had another thought, having digested it a bit.
Spoiler! :
ZS really should have used hindsight when cutting it together, he has the benefit of 4 years of people analysing what worked and what didn’t, plus 2-3 films featuring the other heroes. What he did instead was pretend none of it happened and stuck on his first idea.

I get what you're goal is here, tighten the movie and try to reduce the run time. The problem is even with hindsight you can't chronologically change when this film is supposed to take place.

Cut out the introductory parts involving Aquaman, this has been covered in his solo film.

You can't, because chronologically this is our first introduction to the character. Aquaman happens after this movie and a jarring underdeveloped character is what Whedon has in his cut. Whedon cuts a ton of Atlantian stuff which leaves us in the dark on where the character is at the time.

Cut out the entire Wonder Woman bomb scene, it just doesn’t really work, let’s meet her when she’s working at the museum and sees the news on the tv (bbc news in English, in France, sure why not). We’ve already seen a bunch about her in her 2 solo films, no need to go over it again.

Movies have a pacing issue to keep in mind, you need action beats at certain interval of some sort. If you cut this action scene then you don't have a single action scene until the Steppenwolf on Themysceria, which given the rest of the stuff going on is way too long. This scene establishes "the world before the movie starts." It is in there to present us the idea that yes, she is doing WW stuff before this movie happens. Jumping straight to her quick museum scene doesn't give us a good introduction to the character in this movie and it doesn't feel like she exists outside of this movie. Audiences find a character only showing up when needed and not being introduced as being in the movie before as jarring.

The whole Thermyscria? Amazon scene needs to be shorter, jump straight to the Queen arriving, have her being told what’s happening be a proxy for the audience. Steppie appears, doesn’t bother with a speech, just attacks and gives chase.

This is basically the Whedon cut of this scene, the problem is the tension is gone if you do it this way. It also doesn't establish the mother boxes being awoken. You need the longer earlier stuff to build the suspense. The whedon cut felt flat because he just showed up and took the box. Cutting the speech also cuts backstory the audience needs to know. We know all this stuff because we have seen the Whedon cut, but this movie has to present information as if we are seeing it for the first time for it's narrative to make sense.

Too much time spent doing a ceremony to shoot a damn arrow.

Agreed, but at the same time I think Whedon's version of this was way too short. There's a middle ground.

Also speed up WW finding it in person then seeing the Darkseid Mural. Or just have the Queen visit Diana and explain it, then he could keep the flashback where the armies of middle earth attack Sauron.

The Amazon's don't seem keen on leaving the island. That's not really how they exist here. Besides, it makes sense for Diana to know about their history and seeing the pic of Darkseid lets her know what's going on.

There’s alien invaders killing people and stealing rubix cubes and there’s simply no urgency expressed by the other characters. They genuinely just resume the conversations they were having before the boxes were stolen.

Disagree. Yes urgency is needed but you can't be urgent when you don't know what's going on, where to go or what to do. All Bruce and Diana know at the beginning is that the Amazon mother box is stolen, they have no idea where the others might be but they also know they need more than just the two of them if they are going to have any hope. Once they find out people have been kidnapped they already have the Flash and Cyborg are on the team. And it's only 9 people kidnapped at this point. No one has been killed other than the Amazons that they are aware of and there's nothing they can do about them at this point. They immediately go to where the kidnapped people are once they figure out where they are. They don't know the Atlantean mother box was stolen until after Aquaman shows up and diverts the water, so once again...they are reacting based on information at hand. They also don't panic because immediately after that Cyborg reveals he has the third one. As long as the third is safe then so are they.


Flash’s job interview is tonally jarring, skip that scene and chuck it in his solo film. Maybe just keep his scene with his dad, but jump straight to Bruce meeting him.

It's not a great scene but once again, you can't chuck it in his solo film because one doesn't exist yet and the one we get will come after this chronologically and release order.

Cyborg, a bit one note, however I’d argue that his introductory bits are necessary. We’ve no context for him or his powers. Still needs tightening up, too much slow mo football and glowering at his father. Keep the absent father and breaking the rules to help people who need it. The scenes where he’s ‘hacking’ I thought were too weird at first, but they don’t bother me as much in hindsight.

This movie had the unfortunate task of developing these characters because they should have had a solo movie first. You can't really cut any of this stuff unless you want it be the Whedon version of the character. His father does a pretty decent job of explaining his powers in the voice over.

Lois I’m sad to say is completely redundant up until meeting Clark, would’ve had far more impact to make the her first appearance, and defusing Clark’s rage. The role is wasted on Amy Adams. Leave the Marthan Manhunter for the end, or leave him out completely since he did nothing to help the Justice League. ALL HE DID WAS PEP TALK LOIS.
Once everyone’s on the same page, it actually gets ok.

The MM cameo appearance was weird...but having her show up only when needed would make her feel convenient. She does need some scenes before that just to cue audiences in that she's in this movie. Seems silly, but it's totally a thing...a person showing up right when they are needed and never seen before in the movie is jarring. I'm sure things could have been tightened but you gotta have something.

Apart from this scene that actually happened
Image
Was that an homage? Was it a “no hard feelings Joss” from Zack?

Agreed and not sure what's going on there.

Anyway, the rest of the film plays just fine, all up until the Knightmare sequence that apparently is in a different timeline to the Knightmare sequence from BvS since Batman dies in that one.
What’s the point behind those? Wasn’t the reasoning given by Snyder that Bruce was being manipulated by Darkseid into seeing Clark as a bad guy?
Who’s responsible for this new one? Or can Batman see possible futures now?

Same timeline. That wasn't Batman at the end of the movie. It was MM. The joker makes mention of "you almost had me for a second there, almost had me fooled." or something like that. MM said something that made the Joker realize it's not Batman. MM is a shapeshifter remember. Batman had a dream of the future and I think it's an after effect of Barry talking to him through time. Some stuff got scrambled I think. No Bruce wasn't being manipulated by Darkseid, he already was convinced Superman might be bad in Batman v Superman before the dream sequence based on the Metropolis fight. Clark being bad in the future is because Darkseid corrupts him with the anti-life equation. The next JL movie that will never happen was supposed to involve Darkseid invading, Lois dying and in Clark's grief he succumbs to anit-life and works for Darkseid. JL 3 would have involved them setting the timeline right again and saving Lois as she's the key according to Barry in Batman V Superman.

Oh, just leave out the Lex Luther bit entirely. As cool as Deathstroke looked in his armour, it was completely redundant for this film. Batman just fought a demigod, setting up a confrontation with an ordinary albeit very skilled human doesn’t work.

This was the tease of Lex building the Legion of Doom. And Batman didn't really fight Darkseid, everyone else did. Deathstroke is no slouch at all. He's more than a match for Batman.

Anyway, so much of this film should have been left out or put in other films. He clearly wanted to be in charge of how the DC movie universe played out but he doesn’t have the writing or editing talent to do it. He need last to be reeled I’m not indulged.
He can present visuals pretty well, but he needs to be kept in the directors chair. Give him a good story, a brief one, and let him adapt it to film 90-120 mins max.

Part of this wasn't his choice. WB wanted to rush to the team up movie to catch up to Marvel. I agree, solo movies were needed but that wasn't happening so he kinda had to play the hand dealt. This is why WB freaked out over his 4 hour cut of the movie....he basically said, look you want me to introduce all these characters and team them up, there's no good way to do it at this point. If you aren't giving them solo movies he basically said this movie needs to be long. I'm not a huge Snyder fan, but WB tapped HIM to be in charge of the direction the DC films went. He didn't force WB's hand. Then they changed their mind and tried to change directions mid-stream. I'm not a fan of Batman v Superman but WB wanted him to make these movies....then they got mad when he made his movies. I think he's good at what he does...but what he does isn't for everyone and doesn't work for every story. But this is a case of WB being at fault. They made their bed with picking him.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:54 pm

Quoting the whole thing would just be too long, so I’m just responding to certain bits.
maverick10126 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:04 pm
Benedict wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:52 pm
I’ve had another thought, having digested it a bit.
Spoiler! :
I get what you're goal is here, tighten the movie and try to reduce the run time. The problem is even with hindsight you can't chronologically change when this film is supposed to take place.

The important parts are how they meet each other, the Atlantis/Amazon world building doesn’t belong here. We’ve met Diana in BvS and her solo film (which came out before JL), Aquaman can stay mysterious until his solo film, we don’t need his family history and Atlantean politics.
It’s a pitfall of ZS that he’s determined to introduce all of HIS versions of the characters, remember when he had to show Bruce’s parents dying because Batman’s motivations needed explaining?


Movies have a pacing issue to keep in mind, you need action beats at certain interval of some sort. If you cut this action scene then you don't have a single action scene until the Steppenwolf on Themysceria, which given the rest of the stuff going on is way too long. This scene establishes "the world before the movie starts." It is in there to present us the idea that yes, she is doing WW stuff before this movie happens. Jumping straight to her quick museum scene doesn't give us a good introduction to the character in this movie and it doesn't feel like she exists outside of this movie. Audiences find a character only showing up when needed and not being introduced as being in the movie before as jarring.

Bomb scene starts at 18mins in, then the literal next scene is Themyscria, that starts at 26mins. With the bomb scene gone Steppie’s attack happens 8 whole minutes earlier. No pacing issue there.
Do we need to see her doing hero stuff before the main drive of the film? We see Bruce walking to meet Aquaman before this, neither of them doing hero stuff. Arguably Bruce and Diana need the token hero moments even less as we’ve seen them do it already.


This is basically the Whedon cut of this scene, the problem is the tension is gone if you do it this way. It also doesn't establish the mother boxes being awoken. You need the longer earlier stuff to build the suspense. The whedon cut felt flat because he just showed up and took the box. Cutting the speech also cuts backstory the audience needs to know. We know all this stuff because we have seen the Whedon cut, but this movie has to present information as if we are seeing it for the first time for it's narrative to make sense.

I think you’ve misunderstood me there.
Scene opens, Queen arrives, she’s told the boxes are waking (show the box), Steppen arrives. He decimates the Amazons/destroys that building they transports away. Cut out the unnecessary chase scene (they’re on an island, where were they hoping to run away to?), have the dialogue where it’s explained he’s going after the other boxes. Once again, we don’t need to know the history of the boxes yet, that waits until Diana sees the mural/explains it to Bruce and co.
The film can present things, without stopping the pacing of the film to explain it, plenty can be inferred both from the context and visuals. This box is obviously being guarded, and the people guarding it look nervous about what it’s doing now.
Come to think of it, the very first scene with Clark screaming shows the boxes being awoken, the audience already knows that’s happening.


“Flash’s job interview is tonally jarring, skip that scene and chuck it in his solo film. Maybe just keep his scene with his dad, but jump straight to Bruce meeting him. “

It's not a great scene but once again, you can't chuck it in his solo film because one doesn't exist yet and the one we get will come after this chronologically and release order.

Nothing about the Flash’s interview/car crash scene places it before or after this film, it can be cut and used in his film (Iris is more important to a Flash film than a Justice League film).
His meeting with his dad tells us about his motivations, and his meeting with Bruce shows his speed and also he explains his power.



This movie had the unfortunate task of developing these characters because they should have had a solo movie first. You can't really cut any of this stuff unless you want it be the Whedon version of the character. His father does a pretty decent job of explaining his powers in the voice over.

I’m fine with the voiceover/him discovering what he can do that I thinks works well. I think the writing just wasn’t tight enough.


The MM cameo appearance was weird...but having her show up only when needed would make her feel convenient. She does need some scenes before that just to cue audiences in that she's in this movie. Seems silly, but it's totally a thing...a person showing up right when they are needed and never seen before in the movie is jarring. I'm sure things could have been tightened but you gotta have something.

Her appearance is convenient though. She’s visiting the monument moments before the gang wake up Clark. I maintain that the impact of seeing her for the first time when Clark sees her is better. We’re surprised to see her just Like Clark is, we start remembering their history.
Maybe have her (not slow mo) introduction happen just once instead of twice, we already get from the dialogue that this routine of visiting the monument is a daily thing. She’s shown doing this twice when it could’ve just been shown once.


Same timeline. That wasn't Batman at the end of the movie. It was MM. The joker makes mention of "you almost had me for a second there, almost had me fooled." or something like that. MM said something that made the Joker realize it's not Batman. MM is a shapeshifter remember. Batman had a dream of the future and I think it's an after effect of Barry talking to him through time. Some stuff got scrambled I think. No Bruce wasn't being manipulated by Darkseid, he already was convinced Superman might be bad in Batman v Superman before the dream sequence based on the Metropolis fight. Clark being bad in the future is because Darkseid corrupts him with the anti-life equation. The next JL movie that will never happen was supposed to involve Darkseid invading, Lois dying and in Clark's grief he succumbs to anit-life and works for Darkseid. JL 3 would have involved them setting the timeline right again and saving Lois as she's the key according to Barry in Batman V Superman.

I didn’t get that at all, were we clued into it being MM as Bruce?
I thought the Joker bit was more that he nearly believed Bruce would break his rule of no killing?
There’s something about the plot of a future film justifying this scene that doesn’t sit well with me. It could just have well as been the prologue in the sequel.


This was the tease of Lex building the Legion of Doom. And Batman didn't really fight Darkseid, everyone else did. Deathstroke is no slouch at all. He's more than a match for Batman.

Sure he’s a match for him, but after the events of this movie it must seem like a picnic for Batman. Maybe it was the studio’s insistence that there be seeds for the legion of Doom, but I don’t think it should’ve been put in this film.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:10 pm

Just for reference on the above discussion:
Spoiler! :
the setup with lex was for Afflecks solo film more than legion of doom in jl2. Him telling slade who batman is sets up the plot they revealed would be in Afflecks batman wherein slade would dismantle Bruce's life and try to break him down. Joe has said that Ben was looking to create something like the popular arkham origin batman vs deathstroke fight as a centerpiece to the film and it would be a good match up and presumably would have other villains. I imagine something akin to knightfsll with arkham convicts getting out wearing batman down or even just slade taking everything away from him by using his identity against him who knows.

Also Knightmare batman was not Martian manhunter, jokers comment was simply teasing batman as he was doing his best to push him over the edge as he's always done. Hence why he kept prodding about killing dick because jokers ultimate goal is to get batman to kill him because it means he wins.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:53 pm

To also add onto that convo:
Spoiler! :
I feel the whole "This could be cut and saved for a solo film/This could be cut cause we've seen this at this point" critique totally misses the fact that this is a movie that was meant to come out in 2017.

Aquaman's solo film didn't exist yet.

Wonder Woman 84 didn't exist yet.

The Flash movie was in literal director limbo.

This film wasn't made with those in mind because those films. Didn't. Exist. This movie may have been shot recently and released in 2021 but its existence is still rooted back in 2017, thus it needs to tell a story like that. It needs to establish Aquaman. It needs to establish Flash, Cyborg, re-establish Wonder Woman in the modern day since her first film was entirely in the past, etc. Can some moments be cut down? Absolutely. That's one of the film's main problems; some scenes don't need to be slow-motion, some scenes don't need to linger for so long, so on, so on. But to say "Aquaman's story should have been cut because we have the solo movie already" completely misses the point of this movie...
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:07 am

Spoiler! :
Blood? Swearing? Slow motion? Ridiculous washed out filters? This film has it all.
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Re: Justice League Snyder Cut

Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:24 am

MARVEL KNIGHT 2099 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:53 pm
To also add onto that convo:
Spoiler! :
I feel the whole "This could be cut and saved for a solo film/This could be cut cause we've seen this at this point" critique totally misses the fact that this is a movie that was meant to come out in 2017.

It didn’t come out in 2017, it came out this year. If it’s set in 2017 then technically it’s a prequel to Aquaman & WW84, prequels have the advantage of knowing what happens after. Something ZS decided to ignore. He also made no attempt stick the continuity.
Willem Dafoe’s character drops the necessary information, all you NEED to know re: Arthur’s parents, the “trident”, aliens coming for the box a d asking Arthur to go protect it.
Mera: Snyder contradicts the Aquaman film.
She has a different accent, her parents died and she was raised by Arthur’s mother. If Snyder was pretending this version retcons the theatrical cut, why include the contradictions? It’s unnecessary.


Aquaman's solo film didn't exist yet.

It releases a year later and he would’ve known what would be included, no need to double dip.
You wouldn’t show Bruce’s parents dying every time he appears in a DCEU film.


The Flash movie was in literal director limbo.

can you tell me anything from the interview scene that was essential knowledge to understand his character? It’s superfluous.
His scene with his dad shows everything that’s needed, his character motivation. We’ve already seen his powers in action in BvS.


This movie may have been shot recently and released in 2021 but its existence is still rooted back in 2017, thus it needs to tell a story like that. It needs to establish Aquaman. It needs to establish Flash, Cyborg, re-establish Wonder Woman in the modern day since her first film was entirely in the past, etc.

Firstly: WW wasn’t entirely in the past, it was bookended by present day and that is exactly where Diana is at before ZSJL starts. The strangely motivated museum bombers scene is redundant.
Of course it should establish these 3 new protagonists, the issue is it’s indulgent. A fishing village singing and sniffing Arthur’s clothing does absolutely nothing to show his motivation.
Barry’s poor interview etiquette and saving a girl he was staring at doesn’t show us anything that’s essential to his character. Unless him being heterosexual is important to the plot?


As for missing the point, that’s pretty subjective.

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