WandaVision - Disney+ Series

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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:10 am

Child_of_the_90's wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:54 am
Spoiler! :
There is nothing she could do to make up for what happened other than what she had already done. She literally sacrificed her children and husband to free these people. To them that may mean nothing, but for her that was everything. When she realized what she was doing, she thought she was giving them better lives, but when she realized the truth she was ready to end it. It was a huge sacrifice for her.

It's not like she could just go around to everyone and say sorry or make them a pie. Sometimes the only thing you can do when you screw up is leave and hope one day people forgive you.

However... Agatha was right about one thing. Wanda locking her into the Agnes role is cruel. It shows what Wanda is willing to do to those that cross her and her family.
Spoiler! :
Telling everyone she's sorry would be pretty weak. That's why I said she should turn herself in. Show them that she's making a controlled effort to fix herself.

She knew the people weren't truly happy. Every time they had a moment's truth, they tried to tell her to end it. She kept choosing to leave it all in place. And her grief is real to her, but her alone. Nobody else should be too concerned by her fictitious family. Which annoyed me with Monica. They weren't real. Except to her. Which indicates she needs help. Not kudos for the "sacrifices" she's made.

You and most people seem to acknowledge she's likely to get into major trouble in future, so the right thing to do is get help, not isolate. But that would be boring for future plot sake, I get that, but ideally she wouldn't hole up by herself somewhere.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:45 am

Spoiler! :
Yeah let's turn yourself in to a potentially mentally taxing imprisonment and poking and prodding by third parties with no expertise. Let's do that when it is clearly shown you have now developed reactionary reality warping powers that explode at moments of extreme duress and alter people and places around you unintentionally. Just because Wanda accepted herself as The Scarlet Witch does not mean she now has an omnipotent control over these powers. I'll agree, studying in the Darkhold isn't perhaps the best solution, but what else is she to do? How is she certain Strange and other Sorcerers won't try to kill her outright because of the prophecy? Or another like Agatha take her under her wing with promises of knowledge but then seek the power for themselves?

And I'll also mention, Vision and the Children were real. The Hex was real. They were not figments of her imagination. They came FROM her, but they were fully developed entities that had their own consciousness and sentience, that could not be controlled by Wanda or governed by the Hex like the other residents. Vision came directly from her, being part of the Mind stone, but also independent,brought to life. Billy and Tommy, were products of their union, two new creations. They were all tied to the Hex, and when that ended, they just ceased to be, akin to those who were snapped out of existence. Basically, they weren't illusions as was suggested. That is why Wanda was in deep denial about what she had brought about and why she was dismissive or refused to confront the pain she was causing, because on some level she must have known ending Hex would effectively kill all that she had so desperately wanted.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:05 am

TinkerersAssistant02 wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:10 am
Child_of_the_90's wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:54 am
Spoiler! :
There is nothing she could do to make up for what happened other than what she had already done. She literally sacrificed her children and husband to free these people. To them that may mean nothing, but for her that was everything. When she realized what she was doing, she thought she was giving them better lives, but when she realized the truth she was ready to end it. It was a huge sacrifice for her.

It's not like she could just go around to everyone and say sorry or make them a pie. Sometimes the only thing you can do when you screw up is leave and hope one day people forgive you.

However... Agatha was right about one thing. Wanda locking her into the Agnes role is cruel. It shows what Wanda is willing to do to those that cross her and her family.
Spoiler! :
Telling everyone she's sorry would be pretty weak. That's why I said she should turn herself in. Show them that she's making a controlled effort to fix herself.

She knew the people weren't truly happy. Every time they had a moment's truth, they tried to tell her to end it. She kept choosing to leave it all in place. And her grief is real to her, but her alone. Nobody else should be too concerned by her fictitious family. Which annoyed me with Monica. They weren't real. Except to her. Which indicates she needs help. Not kudos for the "sacrifices" she's made.

You and most people seem to acknowledge she's likely to get into major trouble in future, so the right thing to do is get help, not isolate. But that would be boring for future plot sake, I get that, but ideally she wouldn't hole up by herself somewhere.
You are looking at this in a very black and white manner when there is plenty of gray area.
Spoiler! :
Her family was real to her which means the pain of losing them is just as real. They were not puppets she controlled, they were separate from her. She may have created them, but she did not control them and that is what makes them real.

How would you define real? What makes Billy and Tommy any more real than Wanda? They even touched on this with Vision. What defines the "real" Vision? His body? His memories? His personality and soul? They are both the true Vision, and neither is the true Vision.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:19 am

Spoiler! :
Turning herself in doesn’t make sense. She’s already been a lab rat. She saw what they did to Vision. Government will make her a weapon they could use. Leaving and learning control of her powers is the best thing she could do. Should find a therapist she can trust to deal with her trauma but other than that there’s not a lot she can do to make up for it. She had a mental break and she’s crazy powerful. It’s unfortunate but it took this happening for her to realize she needs to do something about her powers. Self isolation was the right call.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:09 am

I agree. I also think this has more story to play out. This Wanda’s story is just beginning.

The residents/captives of Westview are going to need time and have to find within themselves will they allow themselves to heal, seek vengeance, become bitter, draw into a shell, etc...

Hayward revealed who he was and I don’t think it was bad writing. He obviously hates the powered people for the blip. He wants to flip the script and control the powered. Monica warned him. He has met a power in Wanda he cannot control. She can’t truly control her power. Monica had the right attitude. Cooperation and alliance is a better plan than control.

Perhaps as others have said accountability’s something that needs to be beefed up but the Accords are still flawed.

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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:26 am

I would also point out that Wanda had been experimented on and put in a cell by Hydra, locked in a super-powered prison by General Ross, and placed under house arrest by Tony Strak, so I can understand why she wouldn't want to voluntarily submit herself to another imprisonment. She's probably tired of that. Also, it's not like she just fled the scene. She walked through the town square full of FBI and SWORD agents and no one told she couldn't go. In fact, a top SWORD agent essentially told her, "no worries, good luck."
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:36 am

I think it was last Monday that the white Vision figure was announced. Does this mean tomorrow his two pack mate Scarlet Witch gets revealed?

I liked the ending. The Quicksilver reveal was a bit of a letdown, other than that it was good. Where are those kids???
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:04 am

RoyalCollector wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:45 am
Spoiler! :
Yeah let's turn yourself in to a potentially mentally taxing imprisonment and poking and prodding by third parties with no expertise. Let's do that when it is clearly shown you have now developed reactionary reality warping powers that explode at moments of extreme duress and alter people and places around you unintentionally. Just because Wanda accepted herself as The Scarlet Witch does not mean she now has an omnipotent control over these powers. I'll agree, studying in the Darkhold isn't perhaps the best solution, but what else is she to do? How is she certain Strange and other Sorcerers won't try to kill her outright because of the prophecy? Or another like Agatha take her under her wing with promises of knowledge but then seek the power for themselves?

And I'll also mention, Vision and the Children were real. The Hex was real. They were not figments of her imagination. They came FROM her, but they were fully developed entities that had their own consciousness and sentience, that could not be controlled by Wanda or governed by the Hex like the other residents. Vision came directly from her, being part of the Mind stone, but also independent,brought to life. Billy and Tommy, were products of their union, two new creations. They were all tied to the Hex, and when that ended, they just ceased to be, akin to those who were snapped out of existence. Basically, they weren't illusions as was suggested. That is why Wanda was in deep denial about what she had brought about and why she was dismissive or refused to confront the pain she was causing, because on some level she must have known ending Hex would effectively kill all that she had so desperately wanted.
Spoiler! :
I mentioned rehabilitation or treatment, not jail or offering herself to a military research agency or whatnot. I agree, that likely would be bad. But I feel she owes those people proof that she is taking responsibility for what she did to them. And is there any reason to be so suspicious of MCU Dr. Strange? I'd like to think if she came to him for genuine help, he'd oblige. Besides, Wong would probably help him keep perspective in any event. But I actually had Hawkeye more in mind here. She seems slightly closer to him than most people. It may not work because of real-life MCU scheduling & plans, but in story terms, he seems like he'd be there to help her find her way. Not in knowledge of her powers, but as a friend who will treat her like a normal person. To me, anything is better than self-isolation for an extended period of time when you're in need of serious help.

I don't see her Vision & the kids as real to anyone but her. They're powerfully real to her, sure, but that doesn't make them real to me in an overall sense. I don't think the snap would apply to beings like them because they're purely mystical constructs. She's powerful enough to carry out wish fulfillment, and went to the max there. I would say she did have control over at least Vision though. When he was getting close to figuring something out, she'd just reset him. Or rewind time, or whatever. Manipulative. Not good.

It all kinda reminds of how I went from liking Willow on Buffy in the early seasons, to really disliking her by the end. She too was capable of manipulating people to her preferences, and it made her very unlikable, because she even treated Tara as a meat puppet to control. Wish fulfillment coupled with ridiculously powerful magical abilities tends to go badly. And actually there, Willow ultimately had Giles to help her rehabilitate. That might be what I was thinking of in the back of my mind at the end of this show, with Hawkeye or Strange or whoever, giving her their guidance.
Child_of_the_90's wrote:
Spoiler! :
She had brief periods of lucidity, but she was obviously nuts. Just look at how she was acting during the Modern Family episode. Things were glitching all around her and all she did was sniff the milk and eat her cereal. She was obviously not truly aware just yet and very much in denial.

Who was she suppose to turn herself in to and be trained by? SWORD? The same agency that tried to kill her and her family? Agatha? The one who tried to drain her magic and kill her and her family? The only other person I can think of would be Dr. Strange, but it isn't as if the two of them are pals. They haven't spent any time together that I am aware of.
I don't even know if she knows who he is.

She went off into the mountains, far away from anyone else, so she could learn about herself and understand her powers. She is just trying to find some peace.

Spoiler! :
See my above response for who I had in mind for turning herself over to at the end. I didn't mean necessarily handing herself off to prison or the government. The Darkhold isn't a good book for finding peace. Being alone for a long period of time isn't good for someone who is suffering severe grief.
Child_of_the_90's wrote: You are looking at this in a very black and white manner when there is plenty of gray area.
Spoiler! :
Her family was real to her which means the pain of losing them is just as real. They were not puppets she controlled, they were separate from her. She may have created them, but she did not control them and that is what makes them real.

How would you define real? What makes Billy and Tommy any more real than Wanda? They even touched on this with Vision. What defines the "real" Vision? His body? His memories? His personality and soul? They are both the true Vision, and neither is the true Vision.

Spoiler! :
Again, I said my part responding above, but I'd add, she willingly tortured the townspeople, going so far as to keep them from their children. Who actually were "real-life" children, not hex byproducts. To me, her actions were not in a gray area; they were pretty black hat. She should make a clear effort to them that she will work to better herself, not just try to find a way to resurrect her fictitious children, which is more wish fulfillment. I don't know, maybe, work on yourself, given time you might find someone and have actual children. Don't just magic your "kids" into existence a second time.
Maximoff wrote:
Spoiler! :
Turning herself in doesn’t make sense. She’s already been a lab rat. She saw what they did to Vision. Government will make her a weapon they could use. Leaving and learning control of her powers is the best thing she could do. Should find a therapist she can trust to deal with her trauma but other than that there’s not a lot she can do to make up for it. She had a mental break and she’s crazy powerful. It’s unfortunate but it took this happening for her to realize she needs to do something about her powers. Self isolation was the right call.

Spoiler! :
See how I responded above. Self-isolation is generally bad. Westview was already nearly solipsism for her. She needs healthy interaction, not isolation. Won't be easy if you're that over-powered, I'd assume, but she really shouldn't be alone.
sepster wrote: I would also point out that Wanda had been experimented on and put in a cell by Hydra, locked in a super-powered prison by General Ross, and placed under house arrest by Tony Strak, so I can understand why she wouldn't want to voluntarily submit herself to another imprisonment. She's probably tired of that. Also, it's not like she just fled the scene. She walked through the town square full of FBI and SWORD agents and no one told she couldn't go. In fact, a top SWORD agent essentially told her, "no worries, good luck."

Spoiler! :
See above, but the gist is: I didn't mean imprisonment. I agree, that's not likely to turn out so well. As for Monica's blessing, well, I found that to be pretty lame, but she was one of the characters being set up as sympathetic to Wanda, so it wasn't surprising. I guess I just feel she really needs to make up for her actions, not just run off to a hole, looking for a magic fix to her problems.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:25 pm

TinkerersAssistant02 wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:04 am
RoyalCollector wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:45 am
Spoiler! :
Yeah let's turn yourself in to a potentially mentally taxing imprisonment and poking and prodding by third parties with no expertise. Let's do that when it is clearly shown you have now developed reactionary reality warping powers that explode at moments of extreme duress and alter people and places around you unintentionally. Just because Wanda accepted herself as The Scarlet Witch does not mean she now has an omnipotent control over these powers. I'll agree, studying in the Darkhold isn't perhaps the best solution, but what else is she to do? How is she certain Strange and other Sorcerers won't try to kill her outright because of the prophecy? Or another like Agatha take her under her wing with promises of knowledge but then seek the power for themselves?

And I'll also mention, Vision and the Children were real. The Hex was real. They were not figments of her imagination. They came FROM her, but they were fully developed entities that had their own consciousness and sentience, that could not be controlled by Wanda or governed by the Hex like the other residents. Vision came directly from her, being part of the Mind stone, but also independent,brought to life. Billy and Tommy, were products of their union, two new creations. They were all tied to the Hex, and when that ended, they just ceased to be, akin to those who were snapped out of existence. Basically, they weren't illusions as was suggested. That is why Wanda was in deep denial about what she had brought about and why she was dismissive or refused to confront the pain she was causing, because on some level she must have known ending Hex would effectively kill all that she had so desperately wanted.
Spoiler! :
I mentioned rehabilitation or treatment, not jail or offering herself to a military research agency or whatnot. I agree, that likely would be bad. But I feel she owes those people proof that she is taking responsibility for what she did to them. And is there any reason to be so suspicious of MCU Dr. Strange? I'd like to think if she came to him for genuine help, he'd oblige. Besides, Wong would probably help him keep perspective in any event. But I actually had Hawkeye more in mind here. She seems slightly closer to him than most people. It may not work because of real-life MCU scheduling & plans, but in story terms, he seems like he'd be there to help her find her way. Not in knowledge of her powers, but as a friend who will treat her like a normal person. To me, anything is better than self-isolation for an extended period of time when you're in need of serious help.

I don't see her Vision & the kids as real to anyone but her. They're powerfully real to her, sure, but that doesn't make them real to me in an overall sense. I don't think the snap would apply to beings like them because they're purely mystical constructs. She's powerful enough to carry out wish fulfillment, and went to the max there. I would say she did have control over at least Vision though. When he was getting close to figuring something out, she'd just reset him. Or rewind time, or whatever. Manipulative. Not good.
Spoiler! :
The show pretty much covers that they are real and tied to the Hex. They operate on independent thought, interact with characters both within and outside the hex all on their own accord. True, Wanda may have reversed time to suit her storylines, but this was quickly caught on to by Vision who realized this and other aspects of the Hex were very wrong. That's where the emotional punch in the finale comes from in the first place. Wanda is ending the Hex and giving them up, wiping them out to free the Westview residents. Whether or not you personally believe they are sentient is one thing, but in the context of the show it was pretty well established they were created from her but were free functioning entities. You can even see the part of the Mind Stone forming into new life from Wanda. Original Vision was brough to life by the Mind Stone, it gave him consciousness. Same dealio here except Wanda is now providing both that AND the body. And the fact the kids are crying out for help in the post credits scene, showing they persevere in some way, is evidence enough.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:14 pm

The more I think about it, the more it seems Quicksilver was really this decade's Mandarin/Trevor. They really pulled the rug out from under us there:

"OMG! Fox Quicksilver is here! This is going to usher in MUTANTS to the MCU!"

"OMG! Fox Quicksilver! This is going to usher in X-Men to the MCU!

"OMG! Look at Fox Quicksilver's hair! It's sticking up in two points like devil horns! This is going to usher in Mephisto to the MCU!"

"Who else from Fox X-Men will cross over to the MCU? I hope it's ____________ , _______________. and _________________ , I like them! But not ______________, and _______________, I hate them!"

"Look, Sir Ian McKellan is trending! I bet Magneto shows up!"

"We know Dr. Strange is all but confirmed......"

"I made a comprehensive list of all the actors Paul Betany has never worked with!"

Really at this point the joke is on us. The internet has figured out that geek genre is fueled by speculation, so it floods our feeds and our youtube with clickbait tailored for us.

Still, the fact that none of the above happened, doesn't really matter. The show was about Wanda and Vision, and it delivered a great story about those two characters. Faux Quicksilver doesn't get a total pass, though. He kept Monica locked in his room for who knows how long, keeping her at bay with his powers, then she somehow she is able to just flip him over her shoulder and knock him out? And even though I don't NEED there to be constant guest characters and universe building to enjoy my superhero shows, it would have been nice if he turned out to be someone of consequence. As it stands, Cable's MCU counterpart was Thanos, Human Torch's MCU counterpart was Captain America, and Quicksilver's MCU counterpart was Joe Schmoe from Westview.

Besides faux Quicksilver, a really enjoyable series overall.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:48 pm

Does Wanda even know of Strange's existence yet? How much interaction with the Avengers did he have before the Ringship appeared over NYC at the start of Infinity War? She and Vizh had been off on their lonesome in Europe falling in love n' shit and I don't recall them ever interacting in Wakanda; then there was just a week or two after the Blip before she took over Westview. After the Endgame battle Strange would have been more focused on portaling everyone back home, over introductions and I don't recall him at Stark's Wake.

And Ralph wasn't just a Westview resident but Agnes' husband, which has some added meaning if the legends of witches being the Devil's wives carries any weight. There's plenty of room for him to still be somebody of importance in the future, imho. I don't really buy the idea that his 'mind control' was in the necklace because we don't actually see Agnes magicking it up or around his neck. I'm not invested in the idea, just spit-balling on what we actually see happening.

I enjoyed it, even if he doesn't.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:34 pm

Oh man, sounds like it would've been a really cool sequence.
We did have a whole sequence where Darcy, Monica, [and] Ralph all meet up with the kids, and they're in Agatha's house, and they think maybe they should steal the Darkhold," director Matt Shakman explains below. "They go down there to get the book, and they're reaching for the book, and the rabbit hops up in front of the book."

"They reach over to pat him, and he hisses, and this whole American Werewolf in London transformation happens, and there's this big demon which is [Agatha's] familiar," he continued. "Goonies set pieces ensue as they try to escape from the rabbit."
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:13 pm

Let’s not forget Dr. Strange is kinda a dick who doesn’t get along with most people. If anything he’s going to be annoyed he has to clean up any mess Wanda makes to keep balance. He’s not the mentoring type. I’m sure an understanding will take place but expect their initial interactions to be rocky. She has a natural ability for magic. Chaos magic. Chaos will not make Strange happy. She’s an amateur. A powerful one who doesn’t understand the importance of balance. Strange will not be in awe of her power and think of all the good she could do if trained. She’s a disaster and a problem he will have to figure out.
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:23 pm

Interesting interview with the head writer: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/08/arts ... effer.html

She does mention the stages of grief and that Agatha was helpful in her own way (and that they made her more antagonistic as the writing went on).
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Re: WandaVision - Disney+ Series

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:30 pm

Hang on, does Strange even have a Time Stone any more? The one he gave to Thanos was destroyed and then Cap returned the 'extra' to the Ancient One to get re-destroyed by Thanos the first time.

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