2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

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maschine9
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:55 am

RoyalCollector wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:23 am
I didn't think I would have to specify this, it is about the hairsculpt.

Face made that original hairsculpt on his Siryn custom, and now years later Hasbro seem to have basically reproduced it beat for beat on their official figure. Most of the strands are even in the same positions.

It is not about the costume, the costume is a known Siryn costume.
The details between the custom and hasbro Siryn’s hair are almost identical, but I’m pretty certain Face used Ultimate Spiderwoman’s hair as a base for their custom with added sculpting and paint, which would mean someone definitely looked it up for inspiration,not entirely surprising, several (including many on here- Raybot’s Modern Kitty comes to mind) customizer’s works have seemingly inspired official releases.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:56 am

Samael13 wrote:I really like that hair; it's very dynamic in a way that won't interfere with posing.
I wish that Hasbro would get more on board with swappable hair, though; it'd be nice to have dynamic and relaxed options for long hair.
To each their own. I wouldn't mind it on a screaming head so much. But I despise it on Spider Girl, and I despise it on this neutral head. It would look so awkward next to a figure that has neutral hair. Like, the wind is only blowing around her? I hated it when Toy Biz did it with their Psylocke and repaint Elektra figures too way back in the olden days. Just not a fan.

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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:13 pm

maschine9 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:55 am
RoyalCollector wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:23 am
I didn't think I would have to specify this, it is about the hairsculpt.

Face made that original hairsculpt on his Siryn custom, and now years later Hasbro seem to have basically reproduced it beat for beat on their official figure. Most of the strands are even in the same positions.

It is not about the costume, the costume is a known Siryn costume.
The details between the custom and hasbro Siryn’s hair are almost identical, but I’m pretty certain Face used Ultimate Spiderwoman’s hair as a base for their custom with added sculpting and paint, which would mean someone definitely looked it up for inspiration,not entirely surprising, several (including many on here- Raybot’s Modern Kitty comes to mind) customizer’s works have seemingly inspired official releases.
Image

Very interesting. Definitely lots of similarities between the Hasbro and Face Siryns, and similarly lots of similarities between the Face Siryn and Hasbro Ultimate Spider-Woman.

As a collector none of this matters to me at all, but I can see why the 1 in 1000 collectors that are also sculptors would care.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:01 pm

It's not like they took that actual sculpt & made a mold of it. I don't really see what the point of contention could be here? Whether they look at a comic book, an image they found on Google, or a person sitting across from them was inspiration, Hasbro doesn't collaborate or give credit for any of their sources. So why would it matter if they liked the way that hair looked & used it as references to sculpt their own? It's not stealing someone's work, there's no copyright for hair strand similarities.

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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pm

Regardless on whether the customizer can do something about it, it is stealing their work to an extent.

Customizers make these changes to basic sculpts, make OOAK sculpts by hand and sell them at a higher cost than normal, to someone who is thinking they're getting something unique, and paying good money for it. Hasbro should be setting their own standard. This is the first instance I've noticed of Hasbro doing this, but there are a lot of established people customizing and selling their work, be it full figures, custom head casts, accessories. It's a pretty shitty thing if they then see a massive company like Hasbro marketing something they've done because a sculptor saw it online and thought "that'll do", reproduced then started mass producing it.

I doubt anybody would even want to pursue something legal with Hasbro over it, because as you've said, it would either fall on deaf ears or wouldn't hold up as there are enough minor differences, but it's still a pretty shoddy thing to do, and we can still discuss it. Especially considering a mega company like Hasbro is paying someone to create something brand new, not just reproduce what a another person has already done, without any consideration or credit to that person. Just hire that customizer!

It's only a hair sculpt now but it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Hasbro must have gotten sick of people saying "This is how it should have been done!!!" and decided to get ahead of the crowd. :rolleyes:
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:58 pm

RoyalCollector wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pm

I doubt anybody would even want to pursue something legal with Hasbro over it, because as you've said, it would either fall on deaf ears or wouldn't hold up as there are enough minor differences, but it's still a pretty shoddy thing to do, and we can still discuss it.
The reason it wouldn’t hold up in court is because the customizer doesn’t own the intellectual property. The customized sculpt becomes an unauthorized derivative work.

If you write an Avengers fan fiction script, post it online, and Disney creates a movie that’s identical to your script, you have zero claim to anything. Technically, you violated IP law by writing a script with characters you don’t own and/or not licensed to use.

From an ethical perspective, the reason why this is valid is because it would unfairly penalize the actual copyright holder.

Imagine a “patent troll” for custom sculpts. They use an algorithm they write to create 1000s of different sculpts for every character, 3D print one of each, put for sale on eBay on a print on demand model, and when Hasbro inevitably “steals” one of their designs for a sculpt, because they put 1000s out for each character with slight hair variations, they sue for money.

Would that be fair to hasbro? Of course that’s not what this customizer did, but how do you design a law that objectively differentiates between a person who creates 1000 algorithmically-designed heads and someone who creates one by hand?

Is the cut off one? What if the customizer did two, would that count? How about three? Maybe there’s no number but the judge will know it when he sees it? Which means hasbro will be forced to defense against thousands of lawsuits each year because the law is ambiguous?

What if the customizer makes a crappy head and injures the brand of hasbro? Someone on the internet may see the photo of the poorly made sculpted head of a marvel character, assume hasbro toys are crap and lose interest in buying any? That is one reason it’s illegal technically to sell customized sculpts of heads the IP holder didn’t authorize.

Hasbro has decided hooded cobra commander heads are something they don’t want on the classified series. You can find a customized on eBay who sells them. Should hasbro have no recourse? What if it were your character your designed in a self published comic book. How would you feel if people made action figures that represented your characters in ways you did not approve?

But ultimately the main reason derivative works have no IP protection is because what this thread has devolved into. Blaming the copyright holder for potentially stealing the derivative work. We have no idea if hasbro saw this guys sculpt or not. We have no idea if a hasbro employee violated internal company policy, if one exists, to copying the work.

It would unfairly penalize copyright holders to require that they scour the internet for unauthorized derivative works each time they made a new action figure or script or t-shirt. To ensure they aren’t unfairly “stealing” someone else’s ideas. Hasbro would need to employ dozens of people to scour social media to ensure each new figure is original. And even then they might miss something. So the law says hasbro owns the IP, anyone making derivative works has no claims, and hasbro doesn’t need to search to ensure their figures based on their IP-controlled characters are original.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:04 pm

Customizers are also selling un-licensed products of prominent intellectual properties.

So I think its all good, and we can focus on more positive aspects of the 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:09 pm

minitaur wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:58 pm
RoyalCollector wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pm

I doubt anybody would even want to pursue something legal with Hasbro over it, because as you've said, it would either fall on deaf ears or wouldn't hold up as there are enough minor differences, but it's still a pretty shoddy thing to do, and we can still discuss it.
The reason it wouldn’t hold up in court is because the customizer doesn’t own the intellectual property. The customized sculpt becomes an unauthorized derivative work.

If you write an Avengers fan fiction script, post it online, and Disney creates a movie that’s identical to your script, you have zero claim to anything. Technically, you violated IP law by writing a script with characters you don’t own and/or not licensed to use.

From an ethical perspective, the reason why this is valid is because it would unfairly penalize the actual copyright holder.

Imagine a “patent troll” for custom sculpts. They use an algorithm they write to create 1000s of different sculpts for every character, 3D print one of each, put for sale on eBay on a print on demand model, and when Hasbro inevitably “steals” one of their designs for a sculpt, because they put 1000s out for each character with slight hair variations, they sue for money.

Would that be fair to hasbro? Of course that’s not what this customizer did, but how do you design a law that objectively differentiates between a person who creates 1000 algorithmically-designed heads and someone who creates one by hand?

Is the cut off one? What if the customizer did two, would that count? How about three? Maybe there’s no number but the judge will know it when he sees it? Which means hasbro will be forced to defense against thousands of lawsuits each year because the law is ambiguous?

What if the customizer makes a crappy head and injures the brand of hasbro? Someone on the internet may see the photo of the poorly made sculpted head of a marvel character, assume hasbro toys are crap and lose interest in buying any? That is one reason it’s illegal technically to sell customized sculpts of heads the IP holder didn’t authorize.

Hasbro has decided hooded cobra commander heads are something they don’t want on the classified series. You can find a customized on eBay who sells them. Should hasbro have no recourse? What if it were your character your designed in a self published comic book. How would you feel if people made action figures that represented your characters in ways you did not approve?

That's alot for something I'd mainly consider a moralistic issue. But interesting nonetheless!
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:10 pm

As someone who has had their custom work blatantly pointed out as the basis for a new toy I can honestly say that it's more flattering than anything. I obviously can't speak for Face or others but really, most of the time we're taking Hasbro's work and building on top of it. That custom Siryn uses a Hasbro sculpt with stuff added on top. Whoever sculpted the hair may or may not have used it for inspiration. But it's not like customizers haven't been paving the way for easy reuse and color swaps to get new characters for years. Great minds think alike? Maybe, but they've also alluded to the great work coming out of the community before.

At least they aren't just outright taking your own pic of your own custom and using it as promo material...

https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAR118196

Even then, I just had to go "Oh Mattel....."
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:11 am

I know the guys at Hasbro check out customs on Instagram and twitter, and I'm damn sure that they've used at least one of my customs for inspiration, but much like Robo I take it as a compliment more than anything. I make customs because I love these characters, and by extension the toys based on them, and to have a creator notice me gives me a thrill.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:00 am

RoboKillah wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:10 pm
As someone who has had their custom work blatantly pointed out as the basis for a new toy I can honestly say that it's more flattering than anything. I obviously can't speak for Face or others but really, most of the time we're taking Hasbro's work and building on top of it. That custom Siryn uses a Hasbro sculpt with stuff added on top. Whoever sculpted the hair may or may not have used it for inspiration. But it's not like customizers haven't been paving the way for easy reuse and color swaps to get new characters for years. Great minds think alike? Maybe, but they've also alluded to the great work coming out of the community before.

At least they aren't just outright taking your own pic of your own custom and using it as promo material...

https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAR118196

Even then, I just had to go "Oh Mattel....."
If Hasbro were going to lift anyones work, you'd think they could have the sense to do it with the likes of Christina Conan or Phoenix Force creations for the lady legends. Course correct their recent questionable choices.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:23 pm

So with this wave going up fir pre-order on 1/27, how long do you think before we see it in stores?
March?
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:38 pm

In response to "Hasbro should hire the customizer," it's worth noting that being competent with sculpting compound does not necessarily translate to being competent with 3D modeling software. I work with a dozen master carpenters that can barely figure out email.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:34 pm

wetwithwaterwings wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:38 pm
In response to "Hasbro should hire the customizer," it's worth noting that being competent with sculpting compound does not necessarily translate to being competent with 3D modeling software. I work with a dozen master carpenters that can barely figure out email.
That's very true. I've been physically sculpting in one medium or another for over 20 years now, and am just starting to teach myself digital sculpting - it's certainly a steep learning curve, and it's going to be a long time before I have the skills to actually make anything I'd be happy printing.

Conversely, a friend of mine is an incredible digital sculptor but stick a lump of Apoxie in front of him and he'd be totally lost.
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Re: 2022 X-Men Bonebreaker BAF Wave

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 pm

RoyalCollector wrote:
…If Hasbro were going to lift anyones work, you'd think they could have the sense to do it with the likes of Christina Conan or Phoenix Force creations for the lady legends. Course correct their recent questionable choices.
I very much agree but don’t think they can reliably achieve that level of detail on the hair with their existing QC


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