Pro-Wrestling Discussion

[KnightDamien]

My comment was derived from looking at the pacing and the natures of the respective shows.

I suppose I can't really disagree that this past Dynamite felt a little.. disjointed. It gave me the impression I sometimes get from RAW when you find out later that McMahon showed up and reshuffled every segment ten minutes before air time. BUT, I guess part of what I mean about Dark (and maybe this is just down to how you react to this stuff versus how I do, and that's totally fine), to me the constant squash matches feel like full stops in the programming and -also- make a program feel really disjointed and poorly put together.

One squash match can slide into a program just fine. But doing it over and over again feels like the show lacks proper transitions in the storytelling. Your 'stalled momentum' comment fits very well, actually, with how I feel about a lot of squashes. That could definitely just be a 'me' thing, though.

Those toss-away matches are the bread and butter of the midcard.

I don't disagree with any of what you said. I guess I just feel like you can pad the win/loss record without just having indie guys get absolutely [email protected]#$ steamrolled every single time. A 3-minute tag team match, especially a women's tag match in the current wrestling environment, is pretty inexcusable no matter 'why' you do it. Dark needed like.. 2 or 3 fewer matches. I'm not saying every match needs to be a 20 minute affair, but the women's tag match could easily have gone 6 minutes -- been MORE entertaining for it, and still have put very little stress on TayJay for an easy win. Same with some of the other squashes that, if you just crank their run time by a couple of minutes, they don't 'feel' so obviously squashy while still accomplishing the same goal, AND being more entertaining to watch, and not feeling like the show's momentum dies with every 3-minute victory.

So subtracting the jobbers out of the equation and just looking at the true bouts, I would put Dark over Dynamite this week.

I mean.. if you cut out all the trash, then RAW is a great show, too.
But also.. I don't really disagree here because I think the only match I really cared about on Dynamite was Adam Cole's.

[jimbles]

I'm not saying every match needs to be a 20 minute affair, but the women's tag match could easily have gone 6 minutes -- been MORE entertaining for it, and still have put very little stress on TayJay for an easy win.

Yeah, especially because I think those twins actually had a slight something in them that could elevate them above that jobber squash status. I've seen one of them a before on Dark or somewhere and frankly they seem like up-and-comers that need polish and character legitimacy to make them TV caliber, but it's there innately waiting to be refined. If wins/losses matter, these were not the people to make into tin cans. And emphasis could be put on that assessment if Tony Khan actually does have aspirations for a women's tag belt as has been speculated before. It feels like TK has a tendency to bury the potential for that tag division before it can ever start by making these singles specialists crush the tag specialists.

I mean.. if you cut out all the trash, then RAW is a great show, too.

An entire 3 hour Raw broadcast of just golden eggs, 24/7 Belt comedy sequences, and Lilly dolls scaring people

[jimbles]

Welp, guess Lio Rush is gonna be gone from AEW after February.

[KnightDamien]

Welp, guess Lio Rush is gonna be gone from AEW after February.

That was a waste of Khan money if ever I saw.

Yeah, especially because I think those twins actually had a slight something in them that could elevate them above that jobber squash status. I've seen one of them a before on Dark or somewhere and frankly they seem like up-and-comers that need polish and character legitimacy to make them TV caliber, but it's there innately waiting to be refined. If wins/losses matter, these were not the people to make into tin cans. And emphasis could be put on that assessment if Tony Khan actually does have aspirations for a women's tag belt as has been speculated before. It feels like TK has a tendency to bury the potential for that tag division before it can ever start by making these singles specialists crush the tag specialists.

It happens everywhere, but I have a big problem with tag teams getting beaten by non-teams. In my opinion, it should -almost- never happen. And I think doing it differently would actually elevate an entire company -and- be a refreshing way to show that there is a difference in styles and types of wrestling. To me, even a solid mid-card tag-team that is a dedicated and experienced tag team should be able to beat a 'throw together' team of two massive A-listers. And I sincerely mean that. The Gunn Club should be able to beat (although with difficulty) Bryan Danielson tagging with Andrade. You've got to show that there's more to tag team wrestling than just each individual being a better wrestler than their opponent.

And yeah, the twins have some potential, I think. Huge waste to just decide to job them out instead of building them up as a team.

I should clarify that there is a purpose to jobbers and wrestling needs jobbers. I even think it's possible to turn a career jobber into an important, beloved character if you write it correctly. In fact, I think it's weird we don't see that from time to time. 'This person has a 0-16 record, write them off because they're facing some important guy like Wardlow' and then boom.. they win. And everyone's like 'wtf?! this must be some storyline for Wardlow.' But then you see that same jobber show up on the next episode.. and they win again. And everyone is like 'how is this nobody doing this?' You can build from that and do something really special and unexpected, in my opinion.

Still, jobbers will always exist and they should. But they usually shouldn't be people that have lots of potential unless the ultimate plan is for them to go be successful elsewhere under a different name. Otherwise, you're burying their chances before they really get started and it's hard to climb back from that. So hard, in fact, that most jobbers will -always- be jobbers, regardless of skill. I mean, shit, WWE turns legit stars INTO jobbers just by making them lose all the time to the point where no one cares about them anymore (cough-DolphZiggler-cough). That's how easy it is to bury a career. So the whole jobbing out thing, in my opinion, just needs to be handled with WAY more care and respect than it currently is in any promotion I can think of.




I still am SO unimpressed with Hook. And I'm extra unimpressed that, solely because he's Taz's kid, they're shoving him down our throats Roman Reigns circa 2015 style. I'm so sick of 'LOOK HOW GREAT HOOK IS!' 'HERE'S A VIDEO PACKAGE OF HOW COOL HOOK IS!' 'HERE'S TAZ EXPLAINING HOOK'S DAY ONE OF WRESTLING SCHOOL MOVES SO YOU KNOW HOW TALENTED HE IS!' 'OH, IT'S HOOK, LOOK, EVERYONE LOVES HIM!'
Ugh. He's boring and his finisher is a sleeper, and his hair is stupid as [email protected]#$. He's terrible and my entire family's eyes glaze over whenever his matches come on.

[jimbles]

I still am SO unimpressed with Hook.

They're definitely working hard to protect him in the ring with these matches. I have complicated feelings on him. I can't be as welcoming to him being the second coming of wrestling christ like Simon Miller and many others have been, though I get that it's partially tongue in cheek meme factor. But I'm also looking at him as a 22 year old with nothing stopping him from hitting a second gear and actually developing something aside from fandom goodwill. He's basically neck and neck age-wise to Jungle Boy when JB appeared at the first Double or Nothing event, and now at 24 JB has become pretty much one of the best weekly performers they employ.

On paper, Hook does exactly what's needed of a TV wrestler: he sells merch like crazy and is boosting the ratings when he's booked. But in practical terms... we haven't seen a glimpse into whether or not he can truly cut it. That ain't gonna come until he gets a TV spot that runs long enough for multiple commercial breaks. And instead of move set and technique, that added dimension of length dives deep into ring craft and psychology. What does it do to his mystique when he has to pace into rest holds, or an opponent counters his Redrum, or an opponent springs out of a near fall? Will the audience change their outlook on him? The protection that he's getting leaves a lot of uncertainty.

At first I thought they were protecting him and building him up to be the Moxley replacement, for when Jon inevitably leaves in the next few years. But at this point, after the unexpected meme aspect and fan surge, I kind of wonder if they're working a different angle and are going to straight up Goldberg him. We haven't seen that level of protection, coupled with fan goodwill, since Bill himself. Personally I think the smark neckbeard audience of today won't stand for it and will turn on him if it gets too long in the tooth. But Tony Khan could absolutely try it and see if it'll fly.

Could also be interesting if his first non-squash is a PPV event, where there's no commercials and it's nothing but a pure showcase with a more committed and hardcore audience. To me, that's the best way to "solidify" him as something other than a flash in the pan. The temptation is probably there to do something orthodox and aim him towards a Dynamite episode debut where he goes after the TNT belt but, shit, this is pro wrestling. When there's a fire lit, you're supposed to dump gas on it. It's not a real sport where it's a competition, this is theater that requires the most dramatic and obscenely wad-blowing spectacle imaginable.

I know it would make your eyes glaze over with boredom, but if the money and ratings are there...

[franky4fingers]

I love that AEW has come to my home state tonight, Although I dunno if Cleveland is the best town currently for a show with the themed name Beach Break. what, with all the snow and all

[franky4fingers]

AEW signed my boy! Glad to see Danhausen join the ranks.

[legendkiller533]

i feel like it would have happened sooner if he didnt get hurt, but im glad it happened at all

[KnightDamien]

Boy.. was the Rumble ever absolute [email protected]#$ garbage. Just.. offensively bad. Lesnar loses the title just so WWE can still make sure he's in the main event at WrestleMania. What a joke. And Rousey is a terrible wrestler. She has no business winning the RR, let alone being in a top spot at WrestleMania. And now 'Mania is guaranteed to be main evented by UFC cast-offs instead of people that are, you know, good at wrestling. Yippee.

I wish WWE didn't have people like Edge, Rollins, Bliss... 'cause I'd really love to not have any reason to tune in anymore. 99% of what they do is just so [email protected]#$ bad, and it hurts because of the endless potential they have to put on amazing shows full of great ideas. But this is what they do instead.



Rollins/Reigns was great, though. Part of me is upset by the champion coming out first. But I understand they did it so we could get Roman's reaction to Seth. Still, I'd be a lot more forgiving of it if it weren't something WWE does pretty frequently just because no one at WWE likes or respects wrestling. Honestly, the only wrestling promotion more disappointing than WWE right now is NWA.

AEW signed my boy! Glad to see Danhausen join the ranks.

That might have been one of the best debuts ever, too. Hilarious and awesome. And it works on a lot of levels because if you know.. you know. If you don't know, it's just this hilariously weird thing that randomly happened and you're just waiting to find out who what why on a future episode.

I know it would make your eyes glaze over with boredom, but if the money and ratings are there...

No no, you've got me wrong. What you're describing is what I -want- to make this feel like it matters. Watching Hook fairly easily win matches in just a couple of minutes with basic, baby's-first-wrestling-match moves is what sucks. I don't buy it. No matter how much certain people fawn over him, and no matter how hard AEW tries to -tell- me that he's great, wrestling is almost entirely show don't tell. And I'm seeing a little spoiled kid being protected in the worst, most boring way.
I'd love to see him in the hot seat. Make him go 20 minutes, commercial free. Make him -be entertaining-. Make him have to actually work a real match with an opponent that actually looks like he also wants to win the match rather than 'Hook vs. another guy waiting to lose this match for a paycheck.' If you put Hook in a long match against an active opponent, he'll either sink on his ability to only do three wrestling moves, or he'll shine by proving he's actually more capable than we've seen. And I'm here for it either way.
I'm not against him winning and being booked as a tough guy.

For the record, I had basically the same problem with Cargil. It's not a problem to me that she's booked like a monster. But she was visibly green in the ring, and for a long time never wrestled for more than 2 minutes. So the rep never felt earned because it was too obvious she was being fed compliant victims instead of competing against wrestlers that looked like they wanted to win. If that makes sense.

[TFitz]

Boy.. was the Rumble ever absolute [email protected]#$ garbage. Just.. offensively bad.

Apparently Vince agrees with you. He fired his own son over it.

[KnightDamien]

Boy.. was the Rumble ever absolute [email protected]#$ garbage. Just.. offensively bad.

Apparently Vince agrees with you. He fired his own son over it.

Yeah, I saw that. The word about Sonny boy hasn't been good - with him making an ass of himself backstage and rewriting entire segments to make himself seem cooler and more important.

As anyone active in this thread could easily attest, I have LONG complained about Shane in any kind of active wrestling role. He doesn't belong there and it makes the entire product worse whenever he shows up. Why the billionaire dipshit insists on throwing himself off of things and trying to convince us that an out of shape daddy's boy is on par with seasoned, professional athletes, and why people actually buy into it, is absolutely beyond me. But I'm glad someone finally stopped it, whatever the actual reason.


And boy was that Brian Kendrick situation a bit bananas. What was that -- within the space of 12 hours he went from released by WWE to immediately being in a major televised AEW match, to being blacklisted from pro-wrestling? Ouch. Not sure I buy his apology, either. I mean, how can you believe its sincere when it's entirely self-serving? He'd have to be a nutter butters not to apologize, even if he doesn't mean a word of it. Time will tell, I suppose.

Riho wrestled most of her match against Baker with a broken clavicle. That's [email protected]#$ NUTS.

I saw Punk losing a mile away. But I'm okay with it. This is how you're supposed to do it. His loss -meant- something. It pushed a younger major talent at the right time, and Punk doesn't come away any worse for it.

Really hoping we get to see more televised matches with the Gunn Club. I like those kids. And I'm always happy to see Billy on my TV.

There's so much good wrestling right now. I just wish more of it was coming from WWE.


Oh, and I started watching some NWA on YouTube. Holy balls is that a shitshow.

[franky4fingers]

Cody's leaving AEW. Didn't see that coming

[SalemCrow]

I see some questioning if that's legit, or if they're just working the fans and dirt sheets since he promised he'd never turn heel. He could "leave" AEW and "return" without a contract to challenge for the title again, claiming since he's not under contract, he's no longer obligated to abide by that stipulation.

Until he walks out on stage on either RAW, Smackdown, Impact or an NJPW show, I'll be skeptical. He said such sh!t about WWE when he left, I doubt he'd go back, especially after what he witnessed them do over the last 2 years with releasing over 80 wrestlers.

[franky4fingers]

I see some questioning if that's legit, or if they're just working the fans and dirt sheets since he promised he'd never turn heel. He could "leave" AEW and "return" without a contract to challenge for the title again, claiming since he's not under contract, he's no longer obligated to abide by that stipulation.

Until he walks out on stage on either RAW, Smackdown, Impact or an NJPW show, I'll be skeptical. He said such sh!t about WWE when he left, I doubt he'd go back, especially after what he witnessed them do over the last 2 years with releasing over 80 wrestlers.

I've been thinking about this today and I'm thinking if it's anywhere besides WWE, it's a work. There's enough breadcrumbs for it to make sense. The story about contract issues, the fact it's made reference to by Cody himself in a promo, Tony being more than willing to work with other promotions. so yeah, unless Cody pops up in time for 'Mania, I'm assuming it's a work.

[KnightDamien]

I see some questioning if that's legit, or if they're just working the fans and dirt sheets since he promised he'd never turn heel. He could "leave" AEW and "return" without a contract to challenge for the title again, claiming since he's not under contract, he's no longer obligated to abide by that stipulation.

Until he walks out on stage on either RAW, Smackdown, Impact or an NJPW show, I'll be skeptical. He said such sh!t about WWE when he left, I doubt he'd go back, especially after what he witnessed them do over the last 2 years with releasing over 80 wrestlers.

We definitely live in a world where some wrestlers, like Cody, are learning to -really- play the audience by leaning into the dirt sheets way more than would have even worked in the past. But I don't know. I'd be less surprised if it's just a chance for Cody to take a long vacation and then come back to a big fan reaction. He genuinely seems to hate that fans boo him, and 'returning heroes' always get a reaction, no matter how they left. Leaving for a year or so would give him a chance to come back and be cheered pretty universally, which is I think what he wants.

But I mean... he has two TV shows. Cody clearly likes money and doesn't really have standards for how to make it. And WWE clearly doesn't have much problem working with someone that said bad things if they believe there's big money, or a 'statement' to be made. So would WWE offer Cody big money to get one of those pops that they see happening for WWE guys going to AEW all the time? I believe so.
Would Cody take a big payout from a company he dislikes because people that get rich also lose all their scruples? I believe so.

So anything is possible.

I also fully expect a Cody WWE return to look a lot like Sting in WWE. Just a way for Vinny and Dunn to vicariously punish the competition.