Pro-Wrestling Discussion

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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:22 am


Very much looking forward to this. The territory days always fascinated me. The Rock is one of the producers and apparently the narrator.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm

Gonna watch that for sure. Y'all think it's gonna be a swerve with the Bucks and Page? Rumors going around that Kenny will be back any week now, I could see that being the swerve here, just when it looks like they'll go for the Trios belts, Kenny returns and they get the belts together and Adam goes for it with Dark Order
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:56 am

franky4fingers wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:37 pm
Gonna watch that for sure. Y'all think it's gonna be a swerve with the Bucks and Page? Rumors going around that Kenny will be back any week now, I could see that being the swerve here, just when it looks like they'll go for the Trios belts, Kenny returns and they get the belts together and Adam goes for it with Dark Order
Both Adams and Omega should go super heel and all betray the bucks and RedDragon together. It'll never happen, but people would lose their minds.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:55 pm

I'm trying to decide if WWE missed out on having Drew take the titles off of Roman at Clash at the Castle. Anyway, some fantasy booking directions...

I think a case could be made that Drew winning would have cemented a "anything can happen" view of Hunter's post-Vince WWE. I also think you could have had a couple of really interesting storylines coming out of a Drew win - A) Drew could have de-unified the titles and you could have him try to defend both titles individually, which could eventually fatigue him until he loses one but keeps the other - I think the two titles work better separate, especially when one is held by a face and one a heel so you can have the two different story beats of heels coming after the face for one title and the heel doing anything to thwart the faces for the other. B) Roman dealing with the whispers of he can't win without help coming from within the Bloodline, or he could argue that it was a fluke given the crowd was so behind Drew in his home country, both of which leads to him turning it back up a notch on the evil, controlling mob-boss scale again who hungers for poewer, and have him be focused on getting both titles back at any cost - he could get one back in short order and always be a threat looming for the other. So a short downfall, that seeds some cracks in the Bloodline, but you could build it back up to the current status quo in over 6 months, and eventually leads to the ultimate conclusion of his undoing being and overthrow or coup from within the Bloodline where he looks weak - which fans might cheer who turns on him (redemption arc for an Uso), or it could be he gets cheered/sympathy as he comes back from that (redemption arc for Roman).

At the same time, I think you keep it on Roman because you want the culmination of the Bloodline story to be a bigger deal. Roman is close enough to being a tweener with the fans that you could start to throw both heels and faces at Roman, where he wins fair against the heels (Yay!) but needs the Bloodline to defeat the faces (Boo!). Which could be an interesting dynamic - Is he an unbeatable beast on his own you cheer for? Does he truly need the Bloodline or does he fall back on it because why not? Could you transition more to an Attitude era face that isn't noble, just a badass? Do the fans want to cheer for him now? I could even see the "edict" come down that he needs to defend both titles separately, so by WrestleMania he defends one on night 1 vs a heel (and retains) and the other night 2 vs a face (and maybe loses). You could then gauge which way to go based on the fan reaction - does he lean face by accepting the loss and respecting the champ, or does he lean heel by not doing that?

(If we do get Roman vs The Rock, then you have the Rock teach him Roman humility (and the Bloodline isn't willing to take a side and interfere so Roman is on his own) by having Roman be clearly beaten and ready to take the 1-2-3 from the Rock, but the Rock declines to win - he doesn't want the title, just for Roman to acknowledge him and realize he knows his role - and that if he wants to become the level of the people's champ (and be the true head of the table) that he needs to earn it by respect, not fear...)
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:34 pm

To be honest, I wouldn't want to see any of that. One big reason is that I think having two 'equal' championships is one of the worst things WWE ever did and it should be undone yesterday. HHH needs to unveil a new, SINGLE, unified World Championship and get rid of the two belts. Same for the women. Same for the tag. You 100% devalue all of these titles when there's multiples of each. Don't care how big the roster is.
The dual title thing was just another way for Vince to carry on with the stupid 'brand split' that tried to treat Smackdown and RAW as basically different promotions. Just my personal opinion, but I hate it.

There's plenty of room for more titles that are actually different titles rather than just color-coded main championships. Not to mention that I'd like to see more actual storylines that don't involve titles at all, as well as a return to importance of non-world championships. Why even have them all when they clearly don't matter because you're spending so much time on your [email protected]#$ SIX world championships? Also, the 'Universal' championship is terrible and was laughed at as soon as it was unveiled. Let that die and go back to having one world champion.

Narratively, I get what you're driving at with The Rock. But it would just read as another Vince-era 'the Attitude era guy comes back and wins because of course he does' thing. I hate that, too. Especially letting a guy like The Rock, who wrestles once every two years or whatever, beat your most dominant star that wrestles regularly? What does that say about Roman? Not only that -- what does that say about the rest of your roster? I really don't know that Roman would ever bounce back if we're given a narrative where big cos swings around for one night to smack him around like a bitch, refuses to even be bothered to win the match, and leaves again.
And I don't think Roman needs it. He's definitely, as you said, close to being a tweener. If he's not already. He's definitely over as hell. And if someone is going to finally beat him, I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of HHH's NXT pet projects like Cross, Gargano, or Ciampa. That can work both narratively, and meta: it would be a huge statement of what we can expect from a Trips WWE.

It's interesting because where we are with Roman right now is an opportunity for WWE. You don't get a lot of multi-year world champions anymore. It becomes similar to the streak, where you have to really seriously consider how you end this, and who ends it. Ending the streak being a little different because it was an awful idea to begin with, and awful implementation. But Roman can't be champ forever. He WILL lose. But you'd think they'd want to do that at one of their biggest shows. So the next chance isn't even until Survivor Series. And if not then.. do they wait until next Wrestlemania and really make it something huge?


All that being said, I do think they hurt Drew a little by having him walk away with nothing. Yeah, he's protected by interference, but it's still a big loss and I don't see any clear direction for him from here that does him any favors. We all know how it's viewed when a big time main eventer like Drew either stops going for titles, or starts going for lesser titles (because of how WWE has forced us to view the other titles). And if he keeps chasing Roman and keeps losing, it'll ruin his trajectory. Not sure what the answer is.





Really excited about AEW tonight. Although, as is often the case, I think there's too much on the card. Not sure what I'd cut, but it's a LOT of stuff.

I have a feeling MJF is going to cost Punk his title shot. Which sucks because I can't stand Moxley. I don't think he should even be champ to begin with, and giving him a 3-minute win over Punk is already kind of bullshit, so a second win and a continuing run as world champ makes me gag.

I'm also not super excited about the trios title match. I'm sure it'll be good, but I don't think it will actually top the previous Bucks match in the tournament. And I actually think the Omega/Bucks-Hangman angle is less interesting than the Omega-Osprey angle. When Omega came out and was announced as better than Osprey in all those ways? [email protected]#$ hilarious. And Hangman is backed up by two glorified jobbers, so that doesn't make for a great tournament final, in my opinion.

Can't wait to see Motor City Machine Guns against FTR. That's going to be awesome. House of Black is going to be awesome but I feel like they're going to lose and that's kind of upsetting as I do feel that group is being a little mis-handled. You can only be this scary, dangerous group if your win record beats your loss record. Once you start losing, it's hard to keep the mystique.

Danhausen isn't even in the pre-show, which is kind of lame. I hope he gets in some good promo time or does some fun interference or something. He's too good to be left off the show.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:00 pm

I agree about the titles - better with just one top belt. But I guess the fact they haven't already made it one title but still two belts makes me think they intend to go back to two at some point. With Raw and Smackdown on different channels I'm sure each wants a top belt, otherwise one seems inferior to the other. When both shows were on USA, it didn't matter as much. But given there are two titles, I'd like to see them split between two wrestlers with each champion believing they have the top title and the possibility they may want to go after each other. I don't care about the brand split myself, but I can see why each show should, to some extent, be its own "miniverse" with a top title, a secondary title, a tag title and a women's title. I'd like to see the women have a Universal and a secondary (US or Intercontinental) title, maybe the same with the tags, have a top and secondary title - and use those mid-card titles for folks like Liv who fans get behind but are not credible as being in the Charlotte/Ronda/Becky/Asuka level, or for mid-card teams like Alpha Academy, Viking Raiders, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer they keep the Universal title and drop the Heavyweight - given they don't really do weight classes, and despite the history behind the Heavyweight, Universal fits in better with Intercontinental and US. Make Intercontinental the title it ought to be as a strong #2 title for the best workers (Hart, Michaels, etc. - so AJ and Balor and so on), US title for the grinder types (Lashly is perfect for this, as would be Corbin or Priest), and bring back a cruiserweight title.

I know many people want to see Rock vs Roman, I am not one of them exactly, but if you do it, I think you use it to change Roman's trajectory/alignment. If he wins clean, then detractors can say it was against the Rock at 50 so is it really a rub? And if he loses, what's the point? I think it only works if the Rock feels Roman is a problem with regards to the family legacy, or has gotten too sure of himself (even if it is Roman bragging that he is bigger than the Rock), or something, and wants to "fix" him. It can't be about who is better in the ring per se, but about the family and respect, and either Roman is full heel by the end having killed the Rock, or he is put back on the right path with a whole bunch of Samoans looking on.

I think the problem with such a long title run is that you end up building to one huge moment of Roman being dethroned, as compared to maybe three or four big moments where Roman loses for a bit then regains - so still 3-4 years of dominance with a 90% defense rate of the belt, but still a few reasonable loses. That builds more folks up with a 3-4 month run before it goes back to Roman, makes any defense seem like one where he could drop the title when he has it, and doesn't seem like WWE is anointing the next big things with who beats him - as history says that many fans will think is the wrong guy and turn on the new "hero" the way they did when they tried it with Roman years ago. Which ultimately is why I thought giving Drew a run with the title through Survivor Series before one goes back to Roman would work. So I think they missed the boat a bit by not pulling the trigger at Clash, because I am not sure where the suspense is with Roman at this point and I am not sure that is good. Even if not my booking scenario, I just think it would open up the storytelling. And I think going with one of the old NXT guard would be a big mistake - I like those Ciampa and Gargano but they are Intercontinental types, and Kross is more US title to me. I am assuming they will go with Cody, but I could see Randy get a last hurrah run, or Seth, who like Roman is over no matter what at this point.

I am also not a Moxley fan. Partly because I am not a fan of the "hardcore" stuff anymore (and I attended ECW shows at the Bingo Hall 25+ years ago) and I find his blading all the time to be unnecessary and the bigger hardcore stuff hasn't been pulled off all that well, but partly because I just don't think Mox is all that great in the ring and I find his schtick a little boring.

(I think MJF may return and shock everyone by helping Punk, and they will lean into MJF and Punk vs Khan and AEW fans and the boys in the back stuff a bit more, mocking everyone as marks and how they are only it for the money or whatever and they are not role models or heroes. Although I am really not sure what they are doing with MJF - he has been gone too long now for any return to seem organic for me.)

Anyway, I'll read about the AEW event as I am not interested enough to pay for it...
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:09 pm

Punk going off during the media scrum is interesting. Never know in wrestling what is a work or shoot, but much like the MJF stuff I'm not sure what the benefit is to AEW if it is a work, unless they are working towards a large Indie/original AEW vs high-paid ex-WWE program with Punk on the (ironically) high paid ex-WWE side and MJF on the indie/original AEW side? I still like the idea that eventually Punk and MJF end up together on the same side of "chaos" and being egomaniacs and out for themselves and no one likes them, while believing they are telling truth to power.

Anyway, you have Hangman and the Bucks just in a fight against each other, but now they are both getting blasted by Punk as buddies who feed lies to the wrestling dirt sheets. I get Punk may have been legit annoyed with Hangman going off-script, but honestly no one really noticed it, so deal with that behind the scenes as Punk really wasn't hurt by it - but calling Hangman out as a coward in a later promo hurts Hangman who is one of your top faces. I get everything in wrestling can be carnied to go between work and shoot, but given the focus should be on Punk getting the title back and having to deal with MJF in the future, even if you are heading to Page vs Punk (or Page vs Cabana) at some point, that's down the road.

And the whole Colt Cabana thing, that seemed kind of workish to me anyway, just because there really wasn't a question to Punk, just a weird exchange to get to Cabana's name (You do Improv? Yes with Cabana. So you are friends? Not really...).

I guess the question is: either there really is a lot of backstage drama that is now exposed and could explode, or they are trying to lean into the rumors and dirt sheets and it is being used to promote the company and eventual storylines - comments like Tony saying "Backstage animosity can lead to good matches" makes me think they are leaning into it because that can't be a real take for a manager of people to have. I question the goal of such a work given that Cody wandered away in part rumored to being on the outs from the other EVPs, and so many thought that backstage drama was a work.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:36 am

Note I wrote the above before the stories of an actual melee between Punk & Ace "The Animal" Steel vs the Bucks came out... sigh.., Just not good all around.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am

fac wrote: Note I wrote the above before the stories of an actual melee between Punk & Ace "The Animal" Steel vs the Bucks came out... sigh.., Just not good all around.
It's almost so hard to believe that it seems like a work. I doubt it is, but it's just surreal that it's gotten as volatile as it (reportedly) has. But I still think MJF's 'unhappiness' and wanting to be fired was a total work, as was the whole 'no one has seen or heard from him' thing - which was being reported like it was complete reality. So who knows. The good thing about Tony Khan being a total mark is that he knows how to play marks. Hard to be certain of anything coming out of AEW.

fac wrote: But I guess the fact they haven't already made it one title but still two belts makes me think they intend to go back to two at some point.
I don't necessarily think it's been long enough to make that guess. I imagine -VINCE- probably intended to go back to the two champion system eventually, which is why Roman wasn't immediately awarded a 'Unified' Title Belt. But Vince is gone and HHH hasn't done it either, but he also hasn't split any of the unified titles up yet, either. And the rumor right now is that HHH is currently having new belts designed. Could we be about to see the unified straps? Given HHH is a fan of 'wrestling' and the old school stuff way more than Vince seemed to be, I can absolutely see him going in that direction.

fac wrote: I don't care about the brand split myself, but I can see why each show should, to some extent, be its own "miniverse" with a top title, a secondary title, a tag title and a women's title
I actually just think there shouldn't be 'show rosters.' The idea that any wrestler could appear on any show should be a huge selling point. It adds to the spontaneity of the programming and makes everything seem less scripted. They're already kind of doing that - Roman could be on RAW. Roman could be on Smackdown. He's THE champ. You never know. Just give him one belt and there's no difference to how things are already being done and I, personally, do think it's more interesting that way.
But extend that to all the wrestlers. Anyone could potentially start feuding with anyone else because there's no invisible line saying 'these people don't interact.' And then you can float champions onto any show that needs it that week. It's honestly one of my favorite things about AEW.

fac wrote: Honestly, I'd prefer they keep the Universal title and drop the Heavyweight - given they don't really do weight classes, and despite the history behind the Heavyweight, Universal fits in better with Intercontinental and US. Make Intercontinental the title it ought to be as a strong #2 title for the best workers (Hart, Michaels, etc. - so AJ and Balor and so on), US title for the grinder types (Lashly is perfect for this, as would be Corbin or Priest), and bring back a cruiserweight title.
I don't want a Cruiserweight title because I agree with you about the Heavyweight title. WWE doesn't use weight classes, so the Cruiserweight title has never made sense to me. Especially when guys sometimes have won both the Cruiserweight and Heavyweight titles. But I also don't want them to keep the Universal title because I hate that name so much. Just make it the World title, like every other promotion on the planet and stop being so damn pretentious, right?
I also don't love the US title, if I'm being honest. I don't think the kind of guys that are a good fit for the US belt are really deserving of having a belt. And I do think having too many of them devalues them all.
World, Intercontinental, Tag, Women's, Women's Tag and, I agree, maybe a Women's middle division belt like Women's Intercontinental or a TV title (like AEW's TBS Championship).
Despite that it has no officially disappeared from NXT -- I'm also in favor of a European Championship, but I kind of feel like you need to do something special there and make it something only defended in Europe, or maybe amongst European talent? I don't know. I don't like the idea of adding it just for it to be yet another title.

Ultimately, what I want to see is fewer, more meaningful titles and a greater reliance on story and great matches to get the rest of the roster over. And I say that about both WWE and AEW -- the former of which has just too many repeat titles so every show can have champions, and the latter of which just keeps adding belts left and right.

fac wrote: I know many people want to see Rock vs Roman, I am not one of them exactly, but if you do it, I think you use it to change Roman's trajectory/alignment. If he wins clean, then detractors can say it was against the Rock at 50 so is it really a rub? And if he loses, what's the point? I think it only works if the Rock feels Roman is a problem with regards to the family legacy, or has gotten too sure of himself (even if it is Roman bragging that he is bigger than the Rock), or something, and wants to "fix" him. It can't be about who is better in the ring per se, but about the family and respect, and either Roman is full heel by the end having killed the Rock, or he is put back on the right path with a whole bunch of Samoans looking on.
The only way I can see accepting a Rock v. Roman match is if either he annihilates the Rock and really cements himself as a mega super ultra star, or if he loses to the Rock only because the whole family turns on him. I'm not sure how either thing really works out, though. If you can convince the crowd that the family are -bad- for turning on him like that, you can effectively give Roman a vacation and have him come back as a babyface. New attitude, more appreciative of the fans, and ready to go after the super-bad Usos. But I'm just not sure the crowd will be booing the Usos if they side with the Rock. So, really, I just think it's better to keep Rocky out of this entirely and find better storytelling that doesn't rely on retired Attitude Era guys.

fac wrote: I think the problem with such a long title run is that you end up building to one huge moment of Roman being dethroned, as compared to maybe three or four big moments where Roman loses for a bit then regains - so still 3-4 years of dominance with a 90% defense rate of the belt, but still a few reasonable loses. That builds more folks up with a 3-4 month run before it goes back to Roman, makes any defense seem like one where he could drop the title when he has it, and doesn't seem like WWE is anointing the next big things with who beats him - as history says that many fans will think is the wrong guy and turn on the new "hero" the way they did when they tried it with Roman years ago.
I'm sure maybe it's just that you and I have slightly different likes/dislikes and views about how things should work, but I actually -really- dislike the yo-yo championship. I love long title reigns and I think it actually devalues the champions and the championship if it's a hot potato. When I see Cena is or almost is tied with Flair, in a career that lasted like a quarter as long. Or [email protected]#$ Charlotte having like 4000 title reigns in 5 years. It's awful. What does the title even mean when it bounces around like that? It makes it just a lump of meaningless gold and leather.

But you're absolutely right -- when you have long title reigns, the next winner has to be chosen carefully. I'm just not convinced that's a bad thing. And it's not impossible to do. If Drew had won at Clash, the crowd would have erupted. They would have loved it. People wouldn't have questioned 'oh, he wasn't the right guy for that.' You just have to get the right build and the right time. I think Drew's build was a little shitty going in, but he's a fan favorite so it didn't matter quite as much.

You mentioned Rollins -- I agree. He's also an NXT guy. THE NXT guy, you might say. And I absolutely believe that, with the correct build up, the fans would be FULLY on board with Rollins taking down Reigns. When I say Gargano or Ciampa - obviously I don't mean tomorrow, though. Let's be clear about that. You need to build that properly. You can't just say 'I like this guy, let's make him champion next week.' Fans will revolt.
fac wrote: I am also not a Moxley fan. Partly because I am not a fan of the "hardcore" stuff anymore (and I attended ECW shows at the Bingo Hall 25+ years ago) and I find his blading all the time to be unnecessary and the bigger hardcore stuff hasn't been pulled off all that well, but partly because I just don't think Mox is all that great in the ring and I find his schtick a little boring.
Exactly.
Moxley is an utterly bland wrestler and he knows it. He tries to cover up for how limited he is by bleeding all over everything all the damn time, but all he's actually doing is making blood in matches not seem important or special. If, say, Reigns were to bleed in a match I'd be like.. holy shit, must be a hell of a fight! If Mox bleeds in a match is just like.. oh.. it's a Moxley match.
He's also abysmal on the mic and his promos, even after he got sober, just continued to sound like the drunken ramblings of a dimwit. Not to mention his constant like.. shrugging and scuffling around, or whatever you want to call that weird body language he does, making him look like he's trying way too hard to seem tough and scary.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:11 am

KnightDamien wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am
fac wrote: Note I wrote the above before the stories of an actual melee between Punk & Ace "The Animal" Steel vs the Bucks came out... sigh.., Just not good all around.
It's almost so hard to believe that it seems like a work. I doubt it is, but it's just surreal that it's gotten as volatile as it (reportedly) has. But I still think MJF's 'unhappiness' and wanting to be fired was a total work
Yeah, my initial reaction was that there was no way a 20+ year vet like Punk would crap all over the roster and the storylines they needed to push, just to go back to the "Page was out of line" well and then rip three of the four co-founding wrestlers of the promotion. I mean your #1 role as the #1 guy in a promotion is to be the face of the promotion - and that includes being media savvy, show some political skills, and not let your behind-the-scenes drama trample over the product. If you compare this to Michaels v Hart legit dislike of each other, Michaels was out of line to go to the "Sunny Days" comment - much worse than what Page said about Punk given Hart had his family maybe wondering about infidelity - but Hart didn't go on Good Morning Canada and call out Michaels as coke-head who faked injuries and everyone was pissed off with - even if true at the time. That got physical as well but it was kept as in house as it could be. (As an aside with MJF, I think the unhappiness with his pay and the comments he made may have been legit initially, but they worked something out and then leaned into it. The one thing that bugged me was him skipping the autograph/meet and greet session that fans had paid for- if that was part of the work, I take issue with that - I think that dis-respects your customers too much.)

KnightDamien wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am
fac wrote: I don't care about the brand split myself, but I can see why each show should, to some extent, be its own "miniverse" with a top title, a secondary title, a tag title and a women's title
I actually just think there shouldn't be 'show rosters.' The idea that any wrestler could appear on any show should be a huge selling point. It adds to the spontaneity of the programming and makes everything seem less scripted. They're already kind of doing that - Roman could be on RAW. Roman could be on Smackdown.
I agree, and I do wonder if they will go back to less of a brand split now that house shows are more or less limited to weekends between the two shows. I do see the pros and cons of having a core "cast and storylines" on each roster and maybe have some titles float (the World and the Tags) a bit but keep IC on Raw, US on Smackdown, maybe add a secondary women's for Raw. But I think the draft is stupid, they should move folks around as needed, within reason.
KnightDamien wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am
fac wrote: Honestly, I'd prefer they keep the Universal title and drop the Heavyweight....and bring back a cruiserweight title.
I don't want a Cruiserweight title because I agree with you about the Heavyweight title. WWE doesn't use weight classes, so the Cruiserweight title has never made sense to me.
That's fair, I wasn't consistent in my own comment! I did like the Cruiserweight/205 title as it was a way to add variety to the show and have more of the faster paced style get highlighted, and for guys like Ricochet, Ali and even Rey Mysterio to have a role that doesn't force us believe they can pin a Shaemus or Brock, I'm all for that.
KnightDamien wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am
fac wrote: I think the problem with such a long title run is that you end up building to one huge moment....
I'm sure maybe it's just that you and I have slightly different likes/dislikes and views about how things should work, but I actually -really- dislike the yo-yo championship.
I don't like true yo-yo either (as an example, Charlotte winning then losing 3 weeks later happens too often), but I think after 6 - 9 months and a similar number of title defenses, I feel like the story starts to get a bit old. There is a reason in real sports teams/individuals don't repeat that often and no one goes undefeated, and it is better for that - and with that you can still have someone win 3 out of 5 years and be recognized as the dominant team/person.

I think when you take the title off a main guy for a month or two, then get it back to the main guy for another 6-9 months or so, it is still clear who the top star is with a little extra uncertainty thrown in for the future. Anyway, I don't dislike long reigns but the more I think about it the more I felt they had a great chance to tell a compelling story with Reigns losing without the Bloodline, without Heyman, against someone motivated to be the first person from the UK to win the World title while in the UK - that could have set a few more things in motion instead of a waiting game until WM to see if its Cody or the Rock he faces, and the next half dozen defenses a fait accompli. The beauty of wrestling is you can play into a moment, and I think they missed a real chance to do so in Cardiff.

Anyway, we may be getting more Moxley...
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:25 pm

fac wrote: That's fair, I wasn't consistent in my own comment! I did like the Cruiserweight/205 title as it was a way to add variety to the show and have more of the faster paced style get highlighted, and for guys like Ricochet, Ali and even Rey Mysterio to have a role that doesn't force us believe they can pin a Shaemus or Brock, I'm all for that.
I will always argue that, in the world of wrestling, anyone can believably pin anyone. It's all about the storytelling. Granted, there are some guys that you don't have to -make- me believe can win a fight; your Brocks or your Romans or whatever. But you -can- make me believe -anyone- can win if you tell that story correctly and build your talent intelligently and stop shitting on them all the time whenever they're not in the title picture. It's also why I don't particularly like squash matches -- I don't think they help anyone.


fac wrote:Anyway, we may be getting more Moxley...
It seems that way.

I'm really struggling to organize my thoughts on all of this. It's just so surreal for Tony to come out and just vacate two titles and fire/suspend/whatever FOUR top talents all at once. Not to mention that Punk is hurt -again- and probably out for 6-8 months even if he ISN'T fired. Even if he didn't have a massive attitude problem, reportedly, we'd still be looking at a second time where he wins and immediately vacates the title. AND Malakai has left AEW, so my favourite stable since The Ministry is going to end up where? AEW, a promotion I really, really enjoy watching, is in damn shambles right now and it's depressing.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:13 pm

so i'm on record here that i like mox much more than seemingly most here and i think his aew run has been great and really elevated him to one of the better wrestlers out there. now gratned i've missed a lot of his most recent stuff because we dropped our cable package to save some dough but when i was watching during the pandemic i think he got, at least a good match out of everyone which is important and underrated. his match against yuta was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen live.

now all that aside i think someone else should take the title here. give mox his break. my pick would be danielson because i think you'll get the leadership behind the scenes that mox or jericho would give you plus he should still be able to give you great matches whenever he steps through the ropes. i think that with wwe putting on some better shows recently danielson would be the best option to counter that with. you get some good story line potential with him and the rest of bcc because he may have to beat mox in the finals, and you could probably tie in the jericho garcia and yuta story.

i could also see them going young with sammy and giving it to one of their pillars and let him run with it. i think there is some interesting things there even if im not high on him. him and tay seem to be back to getting booed as opposed to getting no reaction at all so giving him the title may get some heat. personally i wouldve gone hangman if you were gonna go that route because i think he kinda got the short end of the stick with tony wanting to get punk the title and i think with all of this crap going on giving it to him and saying i dont care what punk thinks i trust you enough to carry the company through this.

for me jericho is the least interesting out of the remaining options, which is why he'll probably win it. he did a good job the first go around but i feel like this would be more of the same just with the jas instead of inner circle.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:15 pm

legendkiller533 wrote: so i'm on record here that i like mox much more than seemingly most here and i think his aew run has been great and really elevated him to one of the better wrestlers out there. now gratned i've missed a lot of his most recent stuff because we dropped our cable package to save some dough but when i was watching during the pandemic i think he got, at least a good match out of everyone which is important and underrated. his match against yuta was one of the most entertaining matches i've seen live.

now all that aside i think someone else should take the title here. give mox his break. my pick would be danielson because i think you'll get the leadership behind the scenes that mox or jericho would give you plus he should still be able to give you great matches whenever he steps through the ropes. i think that with wwe putting on some better shows recently danielson would be the best option to counter that with. you get some good story line potential with him and the rest of bcc because he may have to beat mox in the finals, and you could probably tie in the jericho garcia and yuta story.

i could also see them going young with sammy and giving it to one of their pillars and let him run with it. i think there is some interesting things there even if im not high on him. him and tay seem to be back to getting booed as opposed to getting no reaction at all so giving him the title may get some heat. personally i wouldve gone hangman if you were gonna go that route because i think he kinda got the short end of the stick with tony wanting to get punk the title and i think with all of this crap going on giving it to him and saying i dont care what punk thinks i trust you enough to carry the company through this.

for me jericho is the least interesting out of the remaining options, which is why he'll probably win it. he did a good job the first go around but i feel like this would be more of the same just with the jas instead of inner circle.

It could be Jericho. I feel like his latest run with him going through all the past versions of himself is kind of his long farewell. He's getting older. Maybe a final big title reign before he packs it in and transitions to a backstage role? I'm actually expecting it to be Bryan Danielson, as he's incredibly over, and puts on great matches. BUT, there's a sticking point here: Even if the brawl hadn't happened, Punk would have had to vacate the title a SECOND time due to injury. Bryan is also known as being kind of injury prone, and only just recently came back from his own injury. I'd bet you that Khan is, at the very least, trepidatious about hanging the title on another injury prone WWE guy.

Mox is hugely popular, for whatever reason, and even though he's ALSO a WWE guy, I think he's seen more as 'pure AEW/indy' than Jericho and Bryan, despite similar backgrounds. Sammy could win, for sure. But he seems to have fallen down the ladder a bit and feels more like a B-list guy now. While it would definitely send a powerful 'pro-homegrown' message to hang the strap on Sammy, it might also send a very different message about the value of that title when it's not one of your absolute top guys winning it.
And frankly, I think Sammy is getting boo'd right now because his shtick is [email protected]#$ annoying, rather than because people 'hate' him, in that effective heel kind of way. Audiences were silent because they didn't care, and they started booing because they just got sick of how obnoxious everything with him and Tay is. I'm not sure it's going to be nuclear heat if he wins the strap so much as babyface Roman Reigns level rejection. So if they plan to make Sammy champ, they should do something to change how he's perceived really quickly.

That all being said, in this entire tournament I think the guy that needed it most was Darby. He loses as often as he wins. Or at least that's how it feels. And half of those wins can be attributed to teaming with Sting. They rocket strapped that kid by teaming him with one of the biggest names in wrestling still alive today, and maybe ever in the industry, and it feels very much like they've done nothing with that except volleyball him between winning and losing in often random storylines. Putting the title on Darby could have really played into AEW getting behind a home-grown talent, that people really like and would be happy to see as champion. But his win/loss record makes him feel very beatable, so his matches are actually exciting because you never really know when he's going to lose again.

OR.. Miro should have been in it and won it all. Miro's been on a tear forever now and deserves it.



Concerning Moxley: His match against Yuta was fantastic. No denying that. But his collected work isn't very exciting or interesting, and his more recent matches have largely been terrible; just relying on soaking everything in blood. He (or his opponents) bleed so often in matches that it is at the point where it actually makes the matches -worse- than they'd be if no one bled. If you're at the point where people are rolling their eyes when you start bleeding, maybe it's time to stop.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:41 pm

There are some interesting choices that came out of the chaos.

I feel that MJF is likely to take the title from whomever anyway - the only real question to me is if they do it at Grand Slam with a MitB style cash-in (to play into MJF being the hometown favorite thing even though he's a heel everywhere else - I think he was going over Punk at Grand Slam before all of this), or build to the next PPV when he wins it.

Either way I don't think you put the belt on a younger guy just to have a brief run so I doubt Sammy, who I also agree is getting go away heat right now.

If they want to have a transitional champ then Jerrico (over Sammy - you can't have Jerricho beat both BCC members back to back) - he and MJF have AEW history, and I think they'd have the best promo battle options to get folks engaged. A short run would be a nice "thank you" to Jerricho as I assume he will be moving down the card soon-ish anyway. And Jerricho can work "face-lite" for this feud as representing the guy MJF supposedly wants to be, the flashy WWE/sports entertainer star, and both have stables that can battle the weeks/months before the main bout. The downside to Jerricho is people would be rooting for MJF.

But if they want to do the cash in on the exhausted wrestler thing and have MJF leave Grand Slam the title holder, I think doing Moxley vs Danielson for the title, with either one winning a "brutal match" that lets them lose reasonably to MJF, creates some interesting options. If they want to seed dissension in the BCC going forward, whoever wins may not trust whoever lost isn't bitter and looking for revenge. BCC dissension gives them a storyline that is not focused on the title after they lose to MJF, allowing him to pivot to a new group of contenders, like Miro or Darby or Wardlow (which may be why they aren't involved now is they are on deck for MJF feuds) - a new group is needed in the main title picture.
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Re: Pro-Wrestling Discussion

Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:09 am

I don't think WWE has turned as much of a corner yet as I was hoping. Braun sucks balls and I was very happy he was gone so his return almost feels more like a Vince move than a Trips move. Logan Paul is .. not a goddamn wrestler and I'm tired of that whole aspect of WWE as well. And just.. it all still feels like a giant, overly colorful lightshow disaster more than a wrestling program. People are celebrating the new regime and all that.. but a few rehires of NXT darlings is not a direction change.

AEW .. man.. it's a hard watch and maybe it's just that I need to take a break for a bit? I think after the CM Punk thing, and the Jeff Hardy thing, and multiple injuries, and the brawl leaving some of my favorites on indefinite vacation... the entire programming for AEW just feels so deflated and hollow. It's a bummer.

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