Boromir also came with a scabbard. Don't remember a single scene in the film, however, where Boromir carried his unbelted scabbard around in his hand, so I'm not really sure where the value is in a separate scabbard that doesn't attach to the figure. So, color me unimpressed and suspicious of a notation that Eowyn 'includes scabbard.' If it's a separate random piece intended only for the junk drawer, then.. who cares? If it's actually part of the figure - that's great and they should photograph that. But you can't just remove costume elements from the figure and throw them in the box as an extra accessory and say 'we included it.' That's disingenuous, at best.
I don't know. Maybe I'm being entirely unfair. Sure. I'll own that. But every other toy company seems capable of photographing or properly presenting -what the costumer is going to get-. Most action figure Kickstarters seem better presented and clearer, and with a better understanding of what they can reasonably include with an action figure. And how the articulation is going to work. 'We don't know if we can include the correct accessories' or 'we don't know if we can include this extra head.' Like.. what? How long has DST been in business and the final numbers are still an utter mystery?
Even just the idea of not being able to photograph a figure in any kind of poses showing the articulation and accessories is just utterly bizarre compared to how everyone else does things at this point.
At best, it's a system that doesn't work well and needs to be reconsidered rather than a shoulder shrug and a 'that's how we do.' Maybe DST has to worry about the order quantities so much because the presentation of upcoming product is so bad that no one is excited. Having mediocre figures one after another probably doesn't help. I've said plenty of times here before that these figure aren't TERRIBLE. They're not so ungodly bad that nothing could save them. Most of them quite literally seem like they'd be GREAT figures if a single goddamn person involved in the process liked action figures and held the thing before going into production. Because every problem is so incredibly obvious. But what.. no one wants to be the jerk that says 'hey, this is dumb and you should fix it' to a coworker? I don't know. I come from construction where mistakes get people hurt so we actively point out each other's bullshit. It makes us all better at what we do. There's gotta be a reason DST product seems to improve only with agonizing slowness and well behind the quality uptick of their peers.
I know Eamon is a good designer - because you can see what he's done elsewhere. I know Gentle Giant can sculpt because.. you know.. it's GG. The common denominator between them making less-than-impressive work is DST. So what is DST doing in this equation to create friction in the process? That seems important to figure out. If I owned DST, -I'd- certainly want to know and address as many issues or potential issues as possible.
That's not hate. That's not an attempt to be mean. But like.. it doesn't seem like doing better than this would actually be all that difficult. When you have people like Eamon and GG involved in making your action figures, mediocrity is a choice you are making that you do not have to make. You either look at what you've done and say 'this is honestly the best we could do' or you say 'I didn't care enough to do better.' There are no other options.
Of course, that's all predicated on the idea that these figures are mediocre, which is ABSOLUTELY subjective. But I maintain it's also an extremely defensible position. Because my son loves Lord of the Rings, we've had in our home every DST LotR figure made so far, even if I haven't been advertising it (hilariously - because I felt anything I had to say would be too mean and even I have my limits). My impression so far has been every single figure was of sub-par quality overall - mostly in terms of functionality and final details. Missing scabbards or other key items, accessories that don't fit in the hands properly, articulation that doesn't function like it needs to (NOT 'more' articulation - just functionality of the chosen articulation).
I don't have a lot of nostalgic love for the ToyBiz line. I recognize the place in time those inhabit. I loved them when they were new - loved them a lot less as time went on. They didn't age gracefully, for sure. But when I can still point to the better ones - like Isildur (the only one I still own) and say it's a BETTER figure than anything DST has done... that's a problem. I shouldn't even be able to reasonably make that argument. But I can and don't tempt me because this post is so fucking long and I'm sorry but I needed to be very clear in my thoughts here.
So yeah. I fucking love Angus McBride's Eowyn v. Witch-King piece and have always loved it. If I can re-create that on my shelf, that would be really cool. So these two figures have the potential to be ones that I'm okay with owning even if we didn't keep all the previous figures to go with them. So I'm open to it. If they're good, I'm going to buy them. I hope they are. I hope all the issues have been hammered out. I just think it's fair for me to remain skeptical. Never was much hope. Just a fool's hope.
(Again, sorry about the length here but like.. it's a forum so just skip if it if it makes you salty, I guess?)
You may notice that the alt head for Eowyn is not on there, as that is technically not final, but we think we can include it. Believe it or not, the number of accessories is affected by orders, as the more orders we get the more we can include. So we do not always show all of the accessories we prototype, as we usually prototype a few extra just in case.
Amazon POs are counted with the rest of the POs. In most cases, we get pricing on a figure based on quantity, and once we know quantity we need to adjust to meet the SRP. How much we adjust varies, but we don't get pricing until we have a prototype.
I'm sure no one cares about that, and they just want us to show the accessories and the articulation and have more detailed sculpting, but I think we are making a pretty good product, even if we aren't doing the best job selling it.
I absolutely care about stuff like this. I don't know how other collectible companies operate but I don't see any of them operating like this - the idea of intentionally and willfully advertising a product that is THAT likely to change to a customer base that cares about the smallest details is shooting yourself and your product in the foot. I hate pre-ordering in general and really dislike the hard turn towards it from every company, but I won't pre-order anything DST until I know what actually made production - and now you're telling me that what actually makes production is dependent on if I pre-order? What kind of circular logic is that?!
I have to second KnightDamien's thoughts above - I think he nailed it all. Stop settling for a "pretty good product" and start prototyping in plastic and do right by your toys. No other longstanding and reputable company wastes a customer's time like this with pre-orders on literal unfinished products and then adds or subtracts items out of the box when the prototype and/or pre-orders are underwhelming.
I appreciate the info, MSWord, and like KD's post, this is not a personal attack. I'll just reiterate the points in his post.
I may be misremembering that the Boromir scabbard was attached. I didn't check mine first. BUT I know that we are looking at the line across the board and seeing how we can do better with that, including on re-issues.
Unfortunately, we will never prototype in plastic, unless we are using existing tooling, but we don't really recycle tooling like other companies. To tool a detailed 7-inch figure first costs tens of thousands of dollars in molds for a toy that we are not guaranteed to make, and I won't accept the "if you tool it, they will come" argument.
While I have seen a couple of Kickstarters that seem to start with plastic (a sizable investment for an untested toy line), most Kickstarter listings are done with 3-D digital sculpts, or resin prototypes that are simple enough that they can be glued in place and look okay with some Photoshop work. We may be more protective with our prototypes, because we usually bring them to 2-3 shows per year, and if we break them trying to get them to do too much, they look pretty bad in the display case.
I wish I could be in both of our photo studios to help pose items without breaking them too bad (or gluing them together when I do), but I am in a third location which makes things difficult.
Sorry some people are not having fun with the line. We'll keep making them, because they are selling out on a regular basis. Design on Series 10 has begun.
I really hope sales are good enough for the unhelmeted head for Eowyn.
Has anyone found pictures of the troll displayed with figures around it?
I don't know. Maybe I'm being entirely unfair. Sure. I'll own that. But every other toy company seems capable of photographing or properly presenting -what the costumer is going to get-. Most action figure Kickstarters seem better presented and clearer, and with a better understanding of what they can reasonably include with an action figure. And how the articulation is going to work. 'We don't know if we can include the correct accessories' or 'we don't know if we can include this extra head.' Like.. what? How long has DST been in business and the final numbers are still an utter mystery?
Even just the idea of not being able to photograph a figure in any kind of poses showing the articulation and accessories is just utterly bizarre compared to how everyone else does things at this point.At best, it's a system that doesn't work well and needs to be reconsidered rather than a shoulder shrug and a 'that's how we do.' Maybe DST has to worry about the order quantities so much because the presentation of upcoming product is so bad that no one is excited. Having mediocre figures one after another probably doesn't help. I've said plenty of times here before that these figure aren't TERRIBLE. They're not so ungodly bad that nothing could save them. Most of them quite literally seem like they'd be GREAT figures if a single goddamn person involved in the process liked action figures and held the thing before going into production. Because every problem is so incredibly obvious. But what.. no one wants to be the jerk that says 'hey, this is dumb and you should fix it' to a coworker? I don't know. I come from construction where mistakes get people hurt so we actively point out each other's bullshit. It makes us all better at what we do. There's gotta be a reason DST product seems to improve only with agonizing slowness and well behind the quality uptick of their peers..
Cosign on this. I really appreciate msword coming on this forum and the updates and his perseverence through much complaining from us. But much of the defense of the way DST operates (poor posing, unclear accessory inclusion, subpar face painting) comes off like Americans explaining why it would be impossible to achieve single payer or nationalized healthcare stateside when these have already been implemented in scores of other countries, big and small. I don't understand why - seemingly uniquely - DST can't anticipate what is included, how to paint faces, how to cut articulation in to get good range of motion, etc when these are routine for countless other companies, big and small.
I enjoy this line because I love LOTR and there are some gems. I particularly love Gollum (but why no hair??!!) and the inspired choice to give him a hand holding the Ring between thumb and index finger. Awesome! But the fact that Legolas doesn't measure up to almost any random figure from the twenty year old ToyBiz line is a real problem.
Folks, these are children’s play things. Up until now this has been a super chill place to talk about the line and get updates from Zach (which he does of his own will, it’s not his job to post here) the criticisms have been well documented, I’m not sure why there are so many posts all of a sudden with a zealousness that would make Martin Luther blush.
Wait, now people don't think our faces are painted well? Aside form a little eye-roll on some Gandalfs (Gandalves?), our faces are great. And before people say "you should be face printing," we are. I'm FAIRLY certain we're doing it on this line, but we definitely are elsewhere.
Sorry if you think our faces are not good.
I for one have been really enjoying Diamond line. I have owned every single ToyBiz figure they put out and in my opinion Diamond has surpassed them in most areas at least for me. I do hope we eventually get the pre and post Lothlorien cloaks and they find a way to get the characters that have sleeves grip their accessories better. I appreciate what they tried with Saruman and it looks like the sleeves will not be in the way for the Witch King so it seems like they are trying to solve that issue or at least minimize it.
My two biggest gripes with the line have been the sheaths (I would be totally fine if they just did it with a peg where you could just pop it on) and I really wish the waves would come out faster.
Also I really appreciate that they are getting the complete Fellowship out.
Eowyn and Witch-King were my most wanted figures for this line, so I am super excited. Love that Witch-King will come with the flail, Sword, and flame effect!
Folks, these are children’s play things. Up until now this has been a super chill place to talk about the line and get updates from Zach (which he does of his own will, it’s not his job to post here) the criticisms have been well documented, I’m not sure why there are so many posts all of a sudden with a zealousness that would make Martin Luther blush.
It's disingenuous to dismiss critiques with "these are children's playthings." These are marketed to adult collectors and adult collectors are buying. That msword chooses to post here does not mean forum participants cannot share their opinions about the line. There are some great choices made with this line and some that are bewildering. Is it zealotry to acknowledge both?
It is not my thread, anyone should feel free to complain here, but it is definitely a toy line for all ages (kids love it too!).
I will take suggestions when offered, but I will also argue where I feel it is justified, and sometimes members get a little salty when I dare refute their charges, on this thread and others.
The line has some small issues that could (and should) be fixed, but they are $30 figures, not Hot Toys, so criticisms of enlarged images of heads and chain mail should be taken for what they are, when the actual product is much smaller.
The new wave is up for pre order. I got one each of Eowyn and the Witch King. it looks like from the BBTS description that we will not get an unhelmeted head for Eowyn. I don't know if that's accurate, but that's what it seems like.
Uhhh everyone go look at the DST page it shows her with the non helmeted head and a surprise head I was NOT expecting.
God I hope that makes it in the package
It is not my thread, anyone should feel free to complain here, but it is definitely a toy line for all ages (kids love it too!).
I will take suggestions when offered, but I will also argue where I feel it is justified, and sometimes members get a little salty when I dare refute their charges, on this thread and others.
The line has some small issues that could (and should) be fixed, but they are $30 figures, not Hot Toys, so criticisms of enlarged images of heads and chain mail should be taken for what they are, when the actual product is much smaller.
As someone who advanced some critiques of this line, I appreciate you sharing info here and listening to our critiques. There is a lot to like about the line. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't bother critiquing it!
I really hope that when DST make the Lord of the Rings line they will fulfill that the scabbard and accessories fited to body which is the most basic, simple, and best way of making the figures better.But such a so simple expectation is always broken.
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