I did like: "I'm not going to fight you" "I've heard that before"

Also, how do we not yet have a scene of Ahsoka with Luke (and Leia) discussing Dad?

Posted by: @fac

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but they didn't get the closure I was hoping for in this episode.

Maybe they got the closure. Why is she dressed in white now? What did she learn? What was the message that Anakin gave her in that moment?

There's a lot to unpack and I haven't fully digested it yet. It was all awesome, but it's buried under all that live action nostalgia because Dave's been playing with his real life action figures again, so I'm gonna let this one ferment for a while 🤣 

@fac I don't remember too well but didn't Ahsoka and Luke briefly speak of Anakin on Book of Boba Fett?

@mickjohnson I took it to be Ahsoka finally realizing that despite the guy who taught her everything she knew went to the dark side, she could walk her own path. It didn't seem to be a major issue for her except here and there. Force choking and certainly giving into rage during a duel, along with some other moves were all kinda dark-sidey. It sorta helped having just watched Return of the Jedi the other day with my son and watching Luke toe the dark side line with force choking and such, even giving into his anger a few times, until that moment he tossed his saber and commits to walking the light side. I kinda equate this episode to that progression.

And it's one thing to find out your dad, whom you never knew or even met, was a powermad POS, but it's another when it's your mentor with whom you had a constant and intense relationship amidst hardship after hardship. At least how I see it.

Also, there were some great and subtle moments with Hayden when he switched tones. It wasn't Gollum or something, way more subtle and I really appreciated that. Especially that last smile he did after she chose life. It really conveyed to me how tragic and lost Anakin was, switching back and forth between the fun and adventurous possibility and the weak, hateful reality he became. 

I feel each episode was better than the last and this one definitely continued that trajectory in a big and unexpected way.

Incredible.

@ru1977  I forget specifics from Boba Fett, but my assumption is Luke knew nothing about Anakin apart from Obi-Wan and less than nothing about Padme, and Ahsoka knew both - shouldn't he know his parents were heroes at one point, about the true relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Anakin and Padme? I don't want a serious scene, but I want Ahsoka to be telling tales about Anakin's heroics so that Luke knows more about his pre-Vader role as a hero Jedi... Maybe just me.

@mickjohnson I think the idea is she moved beyond being the Jedi who was "just" a fighter forged in battle to one who can joke like Anakin did in the one scene, or know that when pushed she won't kill in anger? Hence her "let's talk to the space whales and see where we end up" moment at the end when she admits she isn't sure what will happen and is OK with that... I think the character arc is about her needing more than Huyang as a source of companionship (Hi, Sabine), maybe not thinking they needed to give up on Ezra to stop Thrawn coming back - a practical leader move, but is it the compassionate Jedi move? Was she only forged by fire due to the Clone Wars and thinks only in terms of power and fighting, but didn't get the Yoda, Qui-Gon and Luke "use the force to be good, not just for good" part of it. I can get behind that if that is the direction they want to take. Was she really the better version of herself when she was fighting on Mandalore in the second "flashback" than the younger kid who felt for the clone trooper?

Obviously it needs to play out, but I could have watched a whole episode of them together. Does she wonder if she had not left the order would he have become Vader, could she have stopped that? Does she carry guilt about that, no matter how misguided that might be? Does Force Ghost Anakin feel bad about what he did - essentially killing Padme, all the people he killed and suffering he caused? Did the time he tried to kill Ahsoka as Vader on Rebels still happen, and if so, how do they feel about that?

Anakin ultimately did the right thing at the very, very, very end with Luke's help, but was Vader just the Dark Side and manipulation from Palpatine - how complicit was Anakin? Rogue One, the Obi-Wan show and some of this show have made Vader frightening and vicious and a true "force" of nature, where in the OT he was more menacing and cruel and deliberate. The more they show us terrifying Vader and his actions, the less earned his redemption becomes in some ways (at least to me) - not saying that is bad, it actually makes for a deeper story I feel, but it just opens up more about why do we see a happy Anakin force ghosting at the end of RotJ like "all's good with me now, thanks".

Posted by: @sepster

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Incredible.

That's my take as well.  Halfway through the episode I had to slap myself because I coudn't believe what I was seeing on the screen.   

This is peak Star Wars to me!

Posted by: @fac

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@ru1977  I forget specifics from Boba Fett, but my assumption is Luke knew nothing about Anakin apart from Obi-Wan and less than nothing about Padme, and Ahsoka knew both - shouldn't he know his parents were heroes at one point, about the true relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Anakin and Padme? I don't want a serious scene, but I want Ahsoka to be telling tales about Anakin's heroics so that Luke knows more about his pre-Vader role as a hero Jedi... Maybe just me.

No, I agree. I barely remember the content of the conversation but I know it was minimal. It also wasn't the first time they met or discussed Anakin etc, so it would be nice to see that conversation. Either, I get why they didn't derail a show about Boba Fett with even MORE not-Fett stuff, but... the tracks were already far in the distance at that point, why not just explore that stuff too?

Posted by: @fac

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@mickjohnson I think the idea is she moved beyond being the Jedi who was "just" a fighter forged in battle to one who can joke like Anakin did in the one scene, or know that when pushed she won't kill in anger? Hence her "let's talk to the space whales and see where we end up" moment at the end when she admits she isn't sure what will happen and is OK with that... I think the character arc is about her needing more than Huyang as a source of companionship (Hi, Sabine), maybe not thinking they needed to give up on Ezra to stop Thrawn coming back - a practical leader move, but is it the compassionate Jedi move? Was she only forged by fire due to the Clone Wars and thinks only in terms of power and fighting, but didn't get the Yoda, Qui-Gon and Luke "use the force to be good, not just for good" part of it. I can get behind that if that is the direction they want to take. Was she really the better version of herself when she was fighting on Mandalore in the second "flashback" than the younger kid who felt for the clone trooper?

Obviously it needs to play out, but I could have watched a whole episode of them together. Does she wonder if she had not left the order would he have become Vader, could she have stopped that? Does she carry guilt about that, no matter how misguided that might be? Does Force Ghost Anakin feel bad about what he did - essentially killing Padme, all the people he killed and suffering he caused? Did the time he tried to kill Ahsoka as Vader on Rebels still happen, and if so, how do they feel about that?

Anakin ultimately did the right thing at the very, very, very end with Luke's help, but was Vader just the Dark Side and manipulation from Palpatine - how complicit was Anakin? Rogue One, the Obi-Wan show and some of this show have made Vader frightening and vicious and a true "force" of nature, where in the OT he was more menacing and cruel and deliberate. The more they show us terrifying Vader and his actions, the less earned his redemption becomes in some ways (at least to me) - not saying that is bad, it actually makes for a deeper story I feel, but it just opens up more about why do we see a happy Anakin force ghosting at the end of RotJ like "all's good with me now, thanks".

Yeah, as usual your take is better than mine. I don't think i'm wrong but you obviously got their intent more efficiently. She was forged in war and Anakin taught her to be a fantastic warrior, but ultimately she had to choose to be more than that.

Hopefully she gets some time with Anakin's actual, Sebastian-Shaw-Suit-Swiping-Spirit in one of the few remaining episodes. But one thing... as fanservicey and Filoni can get, one thing he is pretty good at, usually, is keeping his focus on what the scene is about. The scene with Ahsoka and Luke in BOBF isn't about Anakin and Padme, rather it's about Grogu. But he squeezes in what he can without losing focus too much on what it's really about. The Clone Wars flashbacks were the same. After what you said, yeah, every moment and exchange in those scenes was a straight path from what she was, to what she became, to realizing who she actually should be.

And finally, yeah, I always felt of two ways about Anakin's ghost appearing at the end, whoever's face was on it. Did his final act redeem him? Not at all, except for the one person whose perspective we are witnessing. Saving Luke, as far as the greater galaxy was concerned, made absolutely no difference. The Death Star was as good as gone, the Empire was on its way to being crippled. But saving Luke redeemed Vader for Luke at least. So yeah, I don't think the galaxy at large is gonna consider Anakin as having paid any sort of debt. And that's certainly something that would be nice to explore more, especially since they put some work into de-aging Hayden this time.

Posted by: @ru1977

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I get why they didn't derail a show about Boba Fett with even MORE not-Fett stuff, but... the tracks were already far in the distance at that point, why not just explore that stuff too?

To me more evidence why Grogu should have been totally absent from BoBF and he and Mando should have been apart well into the third Mando season, with us getting glimpses of Grogu being trained every episode...

I don't think i'm wrong but you obviously got their intent more efficiently. She was forged in war and Anakin taught her to be a fantastic warrior, but ultimately she had to choose to be more than that.

I don't think you're wrong either, I am not sure they connected the dots all that well really, or Dawson didn't convey (or have enough time to convey) the potential change in her outlook? It is always tough to not write too on the nose, and if I was a scriptwriter I might do that way too often, but sometimes I wish the trope of "enigmatic lessons from the elder" was toned down and people said what needed to be said - like Anakin at the end with Ahsoka saying something simple like, "Remember, wars don't make one great, as a Jedi you need to more than a great warrior." or "Don't fear becoming me, that is not you."

Did his final act redeem him? Not at all, except for the one person whose perspective we are witnessing. Saving Luke, as far as the greater galaxy was concerned, made absolutely no difference. The Death Star was as good as gone, the Empire was on its way to being crippled. But saving Luke redeemed Vader for Luke at least. So yeah, I don't think the galaxy at large is gonna consider Anakin as having paid any sort of debt. And that's certainly something that would be nice to explore more, especially since they put some work into de-aging Hayden this time.

I think in the Star Wars lore at the time, Vader was redeemed as he was essentially portrayed as a henchman in the first film, eager to get more power in the second, and somewhat emotionally beaten down in the third when he tells Luke that he doesn't understand the Emperor's power and the Dark Sides hold - so in that sense he seems a bit like a victim who finally stand up and does the right thing to save his son. You could argue he made some bad life choices and was partly under the sway of evil by that point - it's in the PT with him slaughtering the Younglings and later events that Lucas ratcheted him up to being pure evil, even though he was manipulated - but as noted Rogue One and Obi-Wan has him off the leash. (Of course, then the ST undermines his redemption further by the Emperor surviving, which is one of the many failures of that set of films).

Posted by: @fac

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To me more evidence why Grogu should have been totally absent from BoBF and he and Mando should have been apart well into the third Mando season, with us getting glimpses of Grogu being trai

First off, thanks for always responding. I appreciate your perspective. Secondly, you are not going to get ANY argument from me. I get they wanted to have the cute moment of Grogu taming the Rancor but yeah, #keepBobaFettinBookofBobaFett and have the focus of the show be that narrative, for what it's worth. Having Din's scene in the butcher shop was great, even if it put a spotlight on how lackluster the show had been up to that point. But I definitely feel Grogu should never have appeared in the show at all and every bit of Din's character development should have been saved for his own show.

And having him wander around kinda aimless, like I said earlier, that works. Bounty Hunting isn't doing it, he doesn't really belong with his cult anymore, and ultimately he doesn't fit in with what Boba's up to either. All that should have not just been in an episode of BOBF but several episodes of Mandalorian season 3.

It's like if you have the ending of Empire Strikes Back, then in Return of the Jedi it starts out with the team going to Endor because all the other stuff played out in another project. but also sorta like if Luke goes off for Dagobah but stays there only five minutes before reuniting with Leia and Han in the middle of the asteroid field. No, they're meant to be apart for some time for things to develop.

Posted by: @fac

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I don't think you're wrong either, I am not sure they connected the dots all that well really, or Dawson didn't convey (or have enough time to convey) the potential change in her outlook? It is always tough to not write too on the nose, and if I was a scriptwriter I might do that way too often, but sometimes I wish the trope of "enigmatic lessons from the elder" was toned down and people said what needed to be said - like Anakin at the end with Ahsoka saying something simple like, "Remember, wars don't make one great, as a Jedi you need to more than a great warrior." or "Don't fear becoming me, that is not you."

If it were done that way, I'd have Ahsoka be the one to realize and say "wars don't make one great..." Anakin felt like he was trying to teach her something but he was sorta figuring out what it was as he went, but also maybe part of him wants her to become him. I don't remember, but did he ask her to come with him in Rebels? It would totally be in character since he wants to take down Palpatine but never feels like he is strong enough to do it on his own. Anakin is driven not just by a need for companions but also to essentially possess them. I doubt he ever would have objected to Luke turning to the dark side since he didn't seem to really see it as all that bad a thing; he just wanted Luke to help him kill Palpatine (in ESB anyway, by ROTJ like you said, he was pretty beaten down).

But yeah, making the lesson she learned a little clearer would not have hurt at all.

Posted by: @fac

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I think in the Star Wars lore at the time, Vader was redeemed as he was essentially portrayed as a henchman in the first film, eager to get more power in the second, and somewhat emotionally beaten down in the third when he tells Luke that he doesn't understand the Emperor's power and the Dark Sides hold - so in that sense he seems a bit like a victim who finally stand up and does the right thing to save his son. You could argue he made some bad life choices and was partly under the sway of evil by that point - it's in the PT with him slaughtering the Younglings and later events that Lucas ratcheted him up to being pure evil, even though he was manipulated - but as noted Rogue One and Obi-Wan has him off the leash. (Of course, then the ST undermines his redemption further by the Emperor surviving, which is one of the many failures of that set of films).

Yeah we don't need to delve into the ST here. That's all a good point about Vader, he was always a very scary and destructive lackey, but definitely always a lackey. I still love how he plays his conversation with Palpatine in ESB with surprise that it's the son of Skywalker that destroyed the Death Star, while clearly knowing his identity already and trying to find him before the Emperor. As soon as he had another chance at having an ally to overthrow his master, he jumped on it.

I always equate Vader with some people I know who are drug addicts. I know they're wonderful, loving people deep down, but when they're in that other head they're such different people. And I can see them shift into an attitude of just not caring anymore how much they further damn themselves. Then they get to a point where they've done so much, why bother trying to come back from it? But eventually, they always do. And they have so much work to do to pick it all back up and ultimately... well... forever will it dominate your destiny.

Call me crazy, but there's a part of me that feel like it wasn't exactly Anakin in that episode. Perhaps a manifestation of Ahsoka's own subconscious via the force? Or the force itself speaking to her thru an avatar?

Despite being redeemed in RoTJ, I just can't buy that Anakin aka mass murdering Vader gets to have a sacred place among the pantheon of jedi in the afterlife to teach others lessons. I can get past the force ghost in RoTJ as a one time reward for Luke to finally see his father. But after that, lights out Annie.

Then it makes sense for him to be in a sort of limbo, stuck between light and dark in the WBW.

Now Lando is a movie.

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/lando-movie-donald-glover-star-wars-1235723736/

Having not watched the cartoons, I'm ignorant; but is this her first learning of Force Ghosts at all?

I haven't seen all of Clone Wars or Rebels so I'm not sure. That's a great question. 

In other thoughts, I have decided they should follow Andor with a Mothma Spinoff. Follow her and other Rebel characters, as well as some Imperials (hopefully Meero among others) through the OT and culminating with the battle of Jakuu. This would also be a chance to do a soft recasting of the main trio (unless they bring back Ehrenreich, which i feel they should) despite studio preference from entirely digital characters. But it would be cool to do soooooooorta a Rosencrantz & Guildenstern thing with it, showing Mothma overlooking the medal ceremony at the end of ANH from a high window as she plans their evacuation before the star destroyers arrive. Where she was during Hoth and so on. 

I’ve rewatched the last three episodes of Ahsoka and they are a meal on their own. Very Clone Wars/Rebels like. Very enjoyable. I’m not sure I get all the nuances but it is enjoyable.

Thwipp!