@ru1977 I thought the article was interesting, and I agree that Sol's motives seem odd so far, as I have written before, I am not sure why he jumped to that conclusion so immediately. And maybe that will remain even after the finale, and he is a flawed character.
It is a fine line between the exchange of ideas being a good thing and a bad thing... mainly based on the willingness to accept when someone rejects or disagrees with a belief. This is a tough thing for all of us.
There is plenty of evidence that missionaries and colonists varied person by person and group by group on how much they "imposed beliefs" on others - some were OK if the people rejected outright, some OK if they took some things and not others, while others were much more forceful in their interactions. We tend to hear about the more egregious conflicts, less how the Spanish and Native cultures blended into each other peacefully over hundreds of years.
The irony of human nature is the same thing that has created so much good - the desire to share our knowledge with others for everyone's benefit (from simple things like "don't touch the flame it will hurt" to "if you use butter instead of oil the recipe will be better" to us discussing a TV show to "it is better for people to have a say in their government") - also can lead to conflict, from personal arguments to wars. That happens generally when people start to believe that others not acting as they believe indicates a moral/intellectual/emotional flaw that needs to be fixed or indicates inferiority and should be forced to change. [/spoiler]
Are you guys reading that article? Because I did a piss poor job of summarizing it.
@fac and I think this is where Sol, and maybe Jedi of the time, fails. He feels, whether he realizes or not, he is superior and has the right to judge whether others are doing it right. Doesn't even mean he is a terrible person because he's just a product of the Jedi mindset. They even pointed this out in the PT when Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan were talking about Jedi arrogance. They were simply used to thinking a certain way.
OK, so I read the article - and while I agree there are certainly valid points in there - I think, to make the point she wants to make, the author conveniently waves away the fact that Indara - who is the leader of the mission - makes the morally right call - but she is let down by the actions of her subordinates. And, to be fair it remains to be seen whether there was any other issue at play that may have influenced them. So, while yes, the Jedi are an imperfect institution - at the heart of it they still seem sound. If the team just followed the direction of the one in charge they would have avoided that conflict.
The author does seem to have interviewed the showrunner and obtained information that the tone presented was in fact her intent with the story - or at least that's how it's written. We'll see if the final episode undercuts that in any way.
Also, from an outcome perspective, is there a tremendous difference in the end result? Play this out differently where the Jedi concede to the wishes of the coven and leave without the girls. How do you think their story plays out? Do you think Qimir doesn't find them? Do you think he doesn't do what it takes to find his acolyte? Do you think the coven gets to live happily ever after? Do you think Mae and Osha do? It seems unlikely to me. The coven deliberately sought to create powerful focal points of the force, there were always going to be consequences for that choice.
OK, so I read the article - and while I agree there are certainly valid points in there - I think, to make the point she wants to make, the author conveniently waves away the fact that Indara - who is the leader of the mission - makes the morally right call - but she is let down by the actions of her subordinates.
Thank you for reading it!
I don't think that's really true though, as far as waving away Indara making the right call:
The problem is how quickly Sol jumps to the conclusion with very little evidence, while the others (barring Indara) follow along with it.
...Sol brings up the marking Mae acquired from the Ascension ceremony—explicitly saying, “They marked her sister with dark magic.” It’s a very telling statement. His mind immediately goes to branding something different as dark, or evil. Even as Indara reminds him, “Ceremonial markings are customary in many cultures in the galaxy,” he doesn’t relent on the subject. Rather he maintains it as some sort of proof the witches use of power is innately wrong.
...Then we have Indara, who’s frequently been brought up by defenders for her handling of the witches and their cultures. I was thrilled when “Choice” revealed her to be the voice of reason, compassion, and even understanding (though she too refers to the witches as “strange”). It was fantastic to see the Council agreeing the coven should be left alone; even believing they’d already interfered too much. It helps to show there are still reasonable people within these institutions. Yet we can’t ignore how Indara also makes a poor decision: choosing to cover up the full nature of the events on Brendok. Her reasoning is well-intentioned (hoping to spare the girl from even more pain), but that doesn’t make it the right call. In this, we see another parallel to the colonizer mindset.
The author mentions it, as well as Indara's reasoning, then of course covering it up.
And, to be fair it remains to be seen whether there was any other issue at play that may have influenced them.
True, but I kinda doubt anything influenced Sol beyond his own emotions. I get why you suspect that though.
So, while yes, the Jedi are an imperfect institution - at the heart of it they still seem sound. If the team just followed the direction of the one in charge they would have avoided that conflict.
Sure, Sol as an individual, made a terrible choice. But I do see the Jedi upbringing as something that failed him as well.
Also, from an outcome perspective, is there a tremendous difference in the end result? Play this out differently where the Jedi concede to the wishes of the coven and leave without the girls. How do you think their story plays out? Do you think Qimir doesn't find them? Do you think he doesn't do what it takes to find his acolyte? Do you think the coven gets to live happily ever after? Do you think Mae and Osha do? It seems unlikely to me. The coven deliberately sought to create powerful focal points of the force, there were always going to be consequences for that choice.
I don't see how, with what information we've been given, either of us can answer all of that. We would need to know how Qimir and Mae first came in contact, and probably why he took her on as an acolyte. We have no evidence that Qimir had anything to do with anything on Brendok. We also would need to know what the point of the ceremony the coven was performing was. We know what Sol assumed it was, but his perception isn't reliable. We can't say Mae was always destined to be Qimir's acolyte, maybe he would have found someone else. If the Jedi hadn't interfered, we cannot say for certain whether the coven would have gone on happily or not. Insufficient data.
And why does seeking powerful focal points of the force equal death? And does that only apply to anyone outside of the Jedi?
So one thing people seem to latch onto is the coven's ceremony is about sacrificing the twins, as if they were in genuine danger..but that's simply how Sol interpreted it. Yes Mae told him it's about sacrifice but that's because she's a child repeating what mother aniseya said....which wasn't about sacrifice the way sol took it. The ceremony is something the witches had all been through.
But I do think it's a bad idea to have the attitude of 'well, if the Jedi hadn't done that then SOMEONE would have, so no harm no foul'. It's definitely not in line with Jedi morals.
Rewatching the series with my son seriously gives me a new appreciation for the show and its themes.
So one thing people seem to latch onto is the coven's ceremony is about sacrificing the twins, as if they were in genuine danger..but that's simply how Sol interpreted it. Yes Mae told him it's about sacrifice but that's because she's a child repeating what mother aniseya said....which wasn't about sacrifice the way sol took it. The ceremony is something the witches had all been through.
How do we know that? We know the twins were specially-created for a purpose while I assume every other coven-member was recruited 'normally'. The Ascension ceremony wasn't completed so we don't really know *what* it's purpose was.
I'm still wondering if the whole Dark Side of the Force isn't all about body-hopping as we ultimately see Palpatine doing in RotS as first shown way back in the Dark Empire comic. Aniseya could very well have been using the twins as her own bodies to soul-hop into. Do we even know they were definitely trying to create twins in the first place? Getting two girls out of the process may well have been an accidental bonus.
I'm just going off the information said in the third episode. The ascension ceremony was something the entire coven had gone through and it was about making the coven's power stronger by combining them all. The power of one, of two, of many. It was something they hadn't practiced since before going into exile, since they weren't allowed that freedom until finding Brendok.
The body hopping thing... I mean maybe. They haven't given any evidence the coven was doing that at all though. Maybe it's just a group of women wanting to be allowed to practice their use of the Force the way they have been without persecution and excited they found a way to procreate without needing men. When the twins reached the right age, they were to be part of the ceremony making them full members of the coven. Aniseya said the ceremony is about walking through fear and sacrificing part of yourself. Sounds kinda like giving up a lot of personal things to be part of something greater, like the coven. What Sol didn't grasp, because he was explained to by a child who couldn't fully articulate, was how similar that is to sacrificing one's family to join the Jedi Order.
Maybe it's all more nefarious than that, but I don't see anything pointing to it beyond Sol's interpretation.
There may be more stuff, but I think the big mysteries left that may not even get explained are what caused all those massive explosions at the coven's fortress, and how did Mae get off Brendok. Maybe Mae's fire led to those explosions, but it's my opinion there was more to it than that. It's natural to connect these with a straight line to Qimir. He was there, he caused the explosions to aid whatever plan he had, and he took Mae on as an apprentice and took her off world. There hasn't been anything shown to hint at Qimir being on that world yet though, and his origin is another thing yet to be shown either. It's also natural to suspect Qimir is how she got offworld since he is the only relationship Mae has been shown to have in her adult life.
The only other idea I could toss out is maybe she got off Brendok using the same ship the coven original used to get there. Have they shown how Mae is getting around to all these worlds? Or is Qimir transporting her to each Jedi?
All these may be questions the people behind the show don't feel are important to the ultimate plot though.
I get where you are coming from, and Sol is certainly an imperfect lens through which to view the events - but the coven created these girls through artificial and arcane means. If this was only about raising a daughter they could have found an orphaned girl and raised her - that isn't what it was about. You have to know that, at least.
They created these beings - and I agree the original goal more than likely was one being not two - probably in hopes that it would be more perfect vessel to channel their force 'magic', perhaps to be a messianic figure to lead their sect into a sphere of influence and respectability that wouldn't have to be hidden. Their goals haven't been made plain to us at this point - and maybe they won't be.
And I'm not hand waving away that Jedi's moral high ground was on shifting sand at best. The choice to cover up the crimes of her brethren by Indara is a crack in the foundation to be certain. And I think her moral dilemma is maybe the most interesting aspect of the entire story for me. If she comes forward and lays bare the - criminal? insubordinate? destructive? rash? - actions of her brethren for the public to see, that erodes public faith in the Jedi as an institution. Is that ultimately good for the galaxy? Maybe? Or does it invite chaos and lawlessness that hastens the rise of a totalitarian regime - oh wait, that's what happened anyway... hmmm
I get where you are coming from, and Sol is certainly an imperfect lens through which to view the events - but the coven created these girls through artificial and arcane means. If this was only about raising a daughter they could have found an orphaned girl and raised her - that isn't what it was about. You have to know that, at least.
I honestly don't. And calling it 'arcane' still feels like embracing Sol's views to me, even though I know that word isn't inherently 'evil' or what have you. I still don't see what they did as obviously nefarious. And adoption is wonderful, I'm not putting down any aspect of that, but you have to know there's a difference between adopting a child and raising someone you created. Especially since they were in exile on that planet and not cruising around looking for orphaned children. They came to that planet, believing they were beyond the Order's reach, and appeared content to do their own thing.
I don't see evidence of hopes for dominion over the galaxy either. Maybe they haven't shown that, or maybe the coven reaching a certain level would have led to that, or maybe Koril survived and now she's gone full dark side, found Qimir, etc etc, but 'maybe's don't add up to much yet. That would be funny though if the Jedi screwed up that badly.
They created these beings - and I agree the original goal more than likely was one being not two - probably in hopes that it would be more perfect vessel to channel their force 'magic', perhaps to be a messianic figure to lead their sect into a sphere of influence and respectability that wouldn't have to be hidden. Their goals haven't been made plain to us at this point - and maybe they won't be.
OR, they were finally able to 'have' children, which meant the continuation of their ways beyond when the final member of the original coven dies. The vow points to as much:
"Mae-ho Aniseya. Do you vow upon my death, to protect the secrets of our coven and continue our legacy?"
Maybe their goals haven't been made absolutely clear, but I feel pretty content with what they have shown to put a period at the end and move on with the story. But they have shown two points of view on that situation, and that does give the audience permission to decide which one they align with. Which is pretty fantastic.
And maybe today we'll actually get a final, third view, heh.
And I'm not hand waving away that Jedi's moral high ground was on shifting sand at best. The choice to cover up the crimes of her brethren by Indara is a crack in the foundation to be certain. And I think her moral dilemma is maybe the most interesting aspect of the entire story for me.
I agree. but also, a lot of these characters and their dilemmas are fascinating to me. I probably come across as hating Sol, but I honestly think he's a fantastic character.
If she comes forward and lays bare the - criminal? insubordinate? destructive? rash? - actions of her brethren for the public to see, that erodes public faith in the Jedi as an institution. Is that ultimately good for the galaxy? Maybe? Or does it invite chaos and lawlessness that hastens the rise of a totalitarian regime - oh wait, that's what happened anyway... hmmm
Right, it's all great stuff to dwell on and I appreciate the show raising these questions. it certainly asks if destiny is truly a thing. Aniseya would have us believe otherwise, expressing a belief that Osha's path is for her to decide.
Aniseya said the ceremony is about walking through fear and sacrificing part of yourself.
EXACTLY, like maybe the part of yourself that is your soul so somebody else can inhabit your more-powerful body?
@adrienveidt Maybe. Maybe not.
I seriously want to use a gif of Mark Wahlberg from Departed for 'maybe, maybe not...', but I'm afraid you may take it as not playful.
Either way, I still try to form my real opinions strictly on what was shown. We can all speculate all day, there's plenty of possibility.
Two things -
Sol's initial reaction to the twins was just about their very existence as Force users - he had no idea there was a ceremony coming or that they were "conceived" via the Force - so he really has no reason that we can see to think the twins were in danger. His motivations are easier to defend given all the audience knows, less so given what he knew then.
(And it was amazingly coincidental that they explored that region just at the time after 7 weeks on the planet when the twins just happened to be outside for the 10 minutes Sol was there and a day before this huge ceremony - of course most plots have a lot of convenience/coincidence, but still)
But the show also hasn't done a great job of explaining to the audience what the Jedi know, or believe, or have trained to do regarding Force "cults" - maybe they have plenty of evidence and history that shows the Force cults that do not adhere to the Jedi guardrails tend to result in very bad things happening. Qimir can whine about not being able to practice the Force as he likes but until he decided to instigate the murder of Jedi they weren't paying attention to him, even if he was a past Padawan. Kotril seemed eager for a fight with the Jedi. The Jedi it seemed were not expecting overt pushback on their demands let alone the potential for someone like Qimir to exist.
(As an aside, this was struggle with the PT, we knew the Jedi had to fall so no matter how it went, it would seem like they failed. It's a shame in some ways that we can't truly watch the PT without any inkling of where the story is going, because I can't even imagine what an impact RotS would have if I thought it was the last film of a trilogy and expected the good guys to totally prevail for it to totally collapse as it did, and then announce that there would be a new trilogy picking up with events 20 years later. I mean, the end of RotS would have been a huge shock.)
Maybe all will be revealed tonight!
Kotril seemed eager for a fight with the Jedi. The Jedi it seemed were not expecting overt pushback on their demands let alone the potential for someone like Qimir to exist.
Initially, she and Aniseya are aware the Jedi are there but just keeping an eye to ensure they don't get too close. When Koril wants to fight is because the Jedi broke in and trespassed during a sacred ceremony. Things escalate from there, but I never see an issue with Koril getting upset with them.
You're right Sol had no indication the girls were in danger at first. I guess Koril raises them with a slightly firm hand? And that informed everything he saw afterward? I dunno. I've seen parents get loud with their kids in public and usually... I get it.
But I really feel some aren't focusing enough on the Jedi breaking in and trespassing during a sacred ceremony. To me, that says everything about their attitude toward the coven.
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