The good parts of Love and Thunder - the opening with Gorr, Gorr taking the kids, Jane and Thor's romance not quite working, Thor trying to come to grips with Jane's cancer, Jane being the hero at the end, Gorr finally meeting a god in Eternity (and Thor) who lives up to the ideals of what that should be so his daughter can experience life in some ways... The serious parts of that film are great in my opinion, and I think there is a true conclusion to Thor's arc in there that could have rivaled Tony's and Steve's endings.
Even new Asgard being a tourist destination and some of the humor worked. But it was too much, too often, and at the wrong times. (I said it at the time, I think it helps to watch it alone without anyone laughing at the silliness, and try to take it seriously).
I really wonder if Thor 4 would have been better if Thor were just removed and we just have Jane and Gorr. All the pieces were there, I just want to re-arrange them.
And have Thor even once wish he had a kid before he ends up being a dad. How is that his ending when he's never expressed a desire for a family? But I don't consider Thor done. For now, yes, but he'll be back.
Maaaan, Ragnarok was almost great. The Kirby aesthetic was wonderful and when it was awesome it was truly awesome. But I don't think they passed up a single opportunity to undermine their own story with some out of place attempt at humor.
It boggles me that people thought Lovin' Thunder went too far with the jokes; it was absolutely restrained in my eyes and the humor worked as part of the story more often than as an interruption.
My only real complaint about L&T, aside from not having the courage to kill Korg, is that I'm not sure why it even exists. I thought Thor's story had completed with Endgame.
MoM was massively undercut by a) WandaVision trying to make excuses for Wanda and then b) Wanda being exposed as the villain too early in the film to Dr Strange. Either you need to come out of WandaVision thinking that Wanda has been totally broken and ready to burn it all to the ground and we are scared of her embracing the Darkhold, or you need her to feel remorse so we want her to find the kids and have her life with Vision, so that once MoM starts either Strange trusts her and we know he shouldn't, or Strange trusts her and we are rooting for her to find her family. Her turn as a mass-murdering psychopath due to the Darkhold is not developed enough.
Secret Invasion failed because Nick Fury is a plot point not a character and his rise to power being due to the Skrulls - meaning he had no incentive to find them a home and was using them to his benefit - should have led to a very compelling story that got people he cared about killed. They finally had a villain who you could kind of understand and agree with the frustration of being pawns for Fury, as they rightly feel that no one is trying to find them a home. But they let Fury off the hook. This should have been his swansong where he went out with us wondering what we thought of him...
I think most of Phase 4 and 5 films have been good on paper - the idea of the D+ shows feeding into the films and adding depth to characters, the overall idea of being postscripts to the Thanos epic, each film introducing the next generation, and the multiverse as the connecting tissue to allow for some fun storytelling - it all works in theory.
But a few too many times the execution has been off - I think the scripts have consistently been a little undercooked, I think they simultaneously strayed from the MCU formula to try something different at times but then undercut that by too often reverting to the same big battle ending (Wandavison is exhibit A where to me the finale was off, while Loki showed how you don't need the big fight and can do something different).
And the threads and hints are reaching late 80's Claremont X-Men plotting where we see someone in a panel foreshadowing something and then 2 years later we get back to them - it needs to tighten up. (I do give them some slack as they had the pandemic, the Majors legal stuff, etc. that clearly threw wrenches into things)
Emphasis mine, but I absolutely agree with that. There are some good things since Endgame, even aside from the great ones, but the scripts all felt like they needed another draft or two to me. I feel the same way about some of the Star Wars shows too though, so I feel like it's more of a Disney issue than Marvel or LFL. And I'm not hating on Disney in the traditional sense, but definitely for rushing studios who can turn out great work when not pressured to hurry up. That's why I don't think it's really them doing too many projects, especially since each project has its own creative team. if the same people were working on WandaVision AND MOM AND Quantumania, AND Loki, then sure. Spread it out more. But they weren't, so it's entirely possible to let these teams breathe and do their thing. When you rush because you wanna because the pandemic lockdown, or the union strikes, or whatever it is... yeah, that's going to show on screen.
Nice comparison to the 2 year setups Claremont was doing!
Maaaan, Ragnarok was almost great. The Kirby aesthetic was wonderful and when it was awesome it was truly awesome. But I don't think they passed up a single opportunity to undermine their own story with some out of place attempt at humor.
I agree, I found the humor in Ragnarök more jarring than Love and Thunder, but I think Love and Thunder suffered more because by then people thought of Thor as comic relief and a joke.
Also, @schizm, no way Thor's arc ended in Endgame. In my mind he needs to take the throne and embrace his role as the true leader of Asgard, not run away from it, and become the serious character he is in the comics who personifies valor and courage.
Love & Thunder is the low point of the MCU movies for me. Secret Invasion is the low point of the entire MCU. What a mess.
The Marvels and Quantumania were fine, just nothing special. They're around a 6/10 ranking for me. Love & Thunder is 5/10 and Secret Invasion is a 4/10.
I don't totally agree.... Marvels was pretty good, but man... Quantumania, to me, probably a 2 or 3. Secret Invasion was a 1. Well, what I saw of it. I couldn't finish it. The scene with Nick and Talos in the train car was the best part of the episodes I watched. I definitely feel it's the lowpoint of the MCU though. At least I sat all the way to the end of Quantumania.
The good parts of Love and Thunder - the opening with Gorr, Gorr taking the kids, Jane and Thor's romance not quite working, Thor trying to come to grips with Jane's cancer, Jane being the hero at the end, Gorr finally meeting a god in Eternity (and Thor) who lives up to the ideals of what that should be so his daughter can experience life in some ways... The serious parts of that film are great in my opinion, and I think there is a true conclusion to Thor's arc in there that could have rivaled Tony's and Steve's endings.
Even new Asgard being a tourist destination and some of the humor worked. But it was too much, too often, and at the wrong times. (I said it at the time, I think it helps to watch it alone without anyone laughing at the silliness, and try to take it seriously).
All really good points. I might give it another watch this week. I remember being genuinely moved by some parts, especially the ending. I didn't see it until it was on Disney Plus though, so maybe it helped not being in the theater with a ton of people.
I really wonder if Thor 4 would have been better if Thor were just removed and we just have Jane and Gorr. All the pieces were there, I just want to re-arrange them.
And have Thor even once wish he had a kid before he ends up being a dad. How is that his ending when he's never expressed a desire for a family? But I don't consider Thor done. For now, yes, but he'll be back.
Maybe it would have been interesting to have Jane be the main character. She is the title character, with the actual Thor the supporting character on the journey.
Maaaan, Ragnarok was almost great. The Kirby aesthetic was wonderful and when it was awesome it was truly awesome. But I don't think they passed up a single opportunity to undermine their own story with some out of place attempt at humor.
It boggles me that people thought Lovin' Thunder went too far with the jokes; it was absolutely restrained in my eyes and the humor worked as part of the story more often than as an interruption.
My only real complaint about L&T, aside from not having the courage to kill Korg, is that I'm not sure why it even exists. I thought Thor's story had completed with Endgame.
I don't remember the humor being too much either, but I think I enjoy the Marvel humor more than most nerds. It's never really intrusive for me, though I remember feeling like I'd had enough of Korg by the end of L&T. Killing him for real would have probably made me like him again, if that makes sense.
But yeah... if it hadn't happened, it wouldn't be the worst thing I guess. I did enjoy Jane's arc though, and feel that was a great redemption for the character. I don't think she was treated poorly in the other movies (except, of course, Ragnarok), but L&T really did a great job of bringing her to a close. Gorr... I was never fully satisfied with, but some parts were pretty creepy and well done.
MoM was massively undercut by a) WandaVision trying to make excuses for Wanda and then b) Wanda being exposed as the villain too early in the film to Dr Strange. Either you need to come out of WandaVision thinking that Wanda has been totally broken and ready to burn it all to the ground and we are scared of her embracing the Darkhold, or you need her to feel remorse so we want her to find the kids and have her life with Vision, so that once MoM starts either Strange trusts her and we know he shouldn't, or Strange trusts her and we are rooting for her to find her family. Her turn as a mass-murdering psychopath due to the Darkhold is not developed enough.
Agreed again. WandaVision and MoM should have had more creative crossover. Didn't the guy who wrote MoM gleefully admit he never watched WandaVision? At least watch the thing and care about making it work together. There were things about MoM I got a kick out of, but how they did Wanda was definitely not one of them. And I'm not even much of a Wanda fan, but they screwed it up. I also am not a Sam Raimi fan outside of the Evil Deads.
Maaaan, Ragnarok was almost great. The Kirby aesthetic was wonderful and when it was awesome it was truly awesome. But I don't think they passed up a single opportunity to undermine their own story with some out of place attempt at humor.
I agree, I found the humor in Ragnarök more jarring than Love and Thunder, but I think Love and Thunder suffered more because by then people thought of Thor as comic relief and a joke.
Also, @schizm, no way Thor's arc ended in Endgame. In my mind he needs to take the throne and embrace his role as the true leader of Asgard, not run away from it, and become the serious character he is in the comics who personifies valor and courage.
Basically, become Odin.
I think Waititi is at least partly influenced by Python, and I grew up watching as much Python as I did Mr. Rogers. Then I found George Carlin and I think those are the biggest influences on my humor. But basically, a lot of Waititi's humor seems to land with me. Like I said, Korg got wearing for me, but... I admit I laughed at the goats every time. I am probably one of five people who can say that, but it's true.
no way Thor's arc ended in Endgame. In my mind he needs to take the throne and embrace his role as the true leader of Asgard
I actually really liked Thor's decision. It's not the assumed end spot for the character, but it was earned. It's a rare moment of storytelling that can take you where you're not expecting to go but still see how we got there.
According to Variety, Downey wouldn't come back without the Russos. They are the only directors he'd work with. Marvel is spending $80 million on the Russo brothers, and "significantly more" for Downey.
The Doom plot has apparently been planned since last year, with Downey's deal done at least since May, but who knows when negotiations began.
Also I'm wondering if him looking like Tony Stark is actually what brings Doom over. He finds a reality where he resembles a beloved hero who died? Kinda perfect. "Yeah, sure, I'm a Tony variant and I'm here to save all of you." Fans everywhere claim "I knew it" when he isn't a variant at all, just Doom.
And the 'looks like' idea isn't crazy to me when we have so many memes claiming Keanu Reeves is immortal because he looks like a picture taken 150 years ago, heh.
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