@fac I definitely agree with the more recent stuff shaking out as a 'closing this chapter, opening that chapter' sort of feel rather than just the slow decline of the Avengers. I think maybe it's easier to forget that these are -comic- movies and by their very nature are going to suffer from the same problems comics do.
You didn't kill all the Avengers. So you -have- to explain where the hell they are. You can't just dynamically shift over to telling a story about a whole different team fighting world-ending major events on Earth, because the vast majority of movie-goers, especially ones not necessarily tied in to the books, are going to say 'okay.. .but why isn't X or Y helping with this?' You can't establish all these characters and then just say 'okay, their story is over - NEXT!' You have to give the audience not just closure, but the continuing sense that those characters exist and are either doing things or retired or dead or whatever. You don't, for example, leave Captain America alive and well but then never have him show up ever again. That would be a huge problem for most audiences even if it's something that comic fans are definitely more used to and accepting of.
We've all, even knowing this problem, complained at some point or another about how a comic or comic movie plot or story element doesn't make sense -specifically- because of the 'where's the other heroes?' problem. The only thing Marvel/Disney could have really done to solve this beyond what they did do... is establish a whole new continuity and say the Infinity Saga was the end of ALL the characters they've established and they're starting over from scratch.
Otherwise.. you'll always need to tell us where everyone is. But given the difficulties inherent in all of this, I actually think they've done a very admirable job of using those marquee characters to drive viewers towards the new ones that will likely anchor the continuity for the next 5-10 years.
And I still fully expect appearances from or throw-away lines about the still-living characters that aren't being played on screen anymore. Because you just sort've... have to, right?
Watching Infinity War and Endgame in the theater is probably one of the coolest moments of my life in terms of entertainment experiences. For a whole ton of reasons I won't get into here that are probably mirrored for a lot of you. But the reality is that's also a huge high to come down from, and nothing for at least the next 5-10 years can possibly compare to that.
We, and Disney/Marvel, have to stay focused that Endgame was built by movies like Thor 2 and Incredible Hulk as much as by Iron Man 1 and The Winter Soldier. Chasing the idea of making every show and film the most important thing you'll watch all year will just cause viewers to stop caring. That is to say.. if Kang is the big bad, he does not need to be in FUCKING EVERYTHING beforehand. How many appearances did Thanos have pre-IW? Exactly.
And I don't disagree that they've passed on too many potential character moments. Absolutely. But I don't think that boxes them out of doing them forever. Any single episode or movie is a chance to reverse course on that and make those moments matter in a way that maybe they haven't, mostly, for a few years now. And it definitely doesn't mean they've boxed themselves out of smaller stories -generally-. That's just a matter of telling a good story.
But FF sucks and is the most boring superhero team of all time, and they all have the collective personality of a day-old Papa Johns pizza.
First off, aw man, no! Even fresh papa john's gives me the trots.
And I definitely don't think they've boxed themselves out of character moments of smaller stories. They just gotta do it. I've said a few times they need to start doing more lower budget movies. I don't expect them to do Kevin Smith-level films all of a sudden, but not everything needs to cost hundreds of millions either. Even Shang Chi, which I apparently am one of the few who was cool with it going supernatural and other-dimensiony at the end... but had they not, and kept it just a straight martial arts family story, it could have been lower budget and that would be fine. I know the trend for a time seemed to be all blockbusters, all the time, but really... I think if anything has fatigued the general audience, it's blockbusters in general not superheroes. Just... most of the blockbusters happen to be about superheroes anymore, heh. I could be totally off, I'm no analyst. But the rumor of more street level series as opposed to effects heavy ones, if true, is something I agree with a hundred percent. Tell great stories with fantastic characters, even without beams and flight and optic blasts etc.
And lastly, you're right that Kang doesn't need to be the center of everything in the saga, nor does every single movie really need to tie in somehow. That's one reason I really enjoyed things like Moon Knight. I love continuity, I love connections and all that, but it's also fun just... having a self contained story. Another thing I said before but will repeat is having more variety as far as stakes and genres. Not everything needs to be the end of the world, universe, or even the city. Had Spider-Man failed in Homecoming, it would have meant the utter destruction of... nothing really. Just a heist ultimately. A big, expensive to portray on screen heist, but still. Hawkeye.... I only watched once but I don't remember massive, world ending stakes in that either. It felt way more personal and down to earth. Not saying they all need to be, but just shuffle more of those in. And genre, yeah... blur what 'a marvel movie' even means anymore. I keep thinking about longevity for a studio, and it's not like MGM only ever produced Westerns, even in the 50s when the genre was, I think, at its peak.
Not sure they have painted themselves into a corner per se, but my sense is they feel the need to one-up stuff, go bigger - and that is mostly self-imposed - so if they are in the corner they wandered into it all on their own.
I still enjoy the MCU a great deal and I find most of them to be fun films or shows, and although in these chats I get into nuance about this or that I don't mean it to be "it was terrible". I mean I love Star Wars, both OT and PT, but can nitpick those to death (the ST is a failure from conception to execution in my mind). Simple conclusion - I think they lost focus a bit and that may have been pandemic related, but virtually everything that hasn't connected with me has been due to "final battle to save the world fatigue" and "glossing over interesting drama and interpersonal story beats" - which I feel are connected in a misread of the audience wanting only escapism - I'm not asking for Paths of Glory or Godfather II levels of storytelling here, but once in a while give me the MCU equivalent of Batman with Ace in Justice League Unlimited (look it up if you haven't seen it...)
Infinity War and Endgame were just about perfect and the peak of the MCU in terms of mix of storytelling, characters, drama and grandeur has been hit no matter what they do, which influences some of the reaction to the stuff that comes after. Which is OK - Star Trek will never top Wrath of Khan and Spock's death and Star Wars can't top "I am a Jedi like my Father before me" and Vader's redemption as peak moments. You can still do great stuff, but you can't chase those once-in-a-franchise moments when everything comes together and try to beat it.
I will ignore the unfounded pizza-inspired attack on the FF. Part of conversing on the internet is knowing that at times you come across crazy people with mis-guided, irrational beliefs - like flat-earthers or those who think humans hunted dinosaurs or people who do not recognize The World's Greatest Comics Magazine - and it is best to ignore them.
Not sure they have painted themselves into a corner per se, but my sense is they feel the need to one-up stuff, go bigger - and that is mostly self-imposed - so if they are in the corner they wandered into it all on their own.
Definitely. It's self-imposed but also imaginary.
I still enjoy the MCU a great deal and I find most of them to be fun films or shows, and although in these chats I get into nuance about this or that I don't mean it to be "it was terrible".
I'm not sure how I come across but I am mostly the same way. I've never regretted watching any of the MCU projects... outside of Secret Invasion. But even then, I won't fully commit to "it's terrible" (despite maybe saying it is on here at some point) because a) I didn't finish it and can't really speak intelligently about it, and b) it just wasn't what I wanted. We had a brief thing in the Black Series thread today about what one brings with them when watching a movie (like Luke going into the cave, heh), and I wasn't even going into SI with adoration about the comic series, but some of my disappointment with that show definitely stemmed from it not being what I expected.
I mean I love Star Wars, both OT and PT, but can nitpick those to death (the ST is a failure from conception to execution in my mind).
Simple conclusion - I think they lost focus a bit and that may have been pandemic related, but virtually everything that hasn't connected with me has been due to "final battle to save the world fatigue" and "glossing over interesting drama and interpersonal story beats" -
I may have to review but same, I think. Same for me.
which I feel are connected in a misread of the audience wanting only escapism - I'm not asking for Paths of Glory or Godfather II levels of storytelling here, but once in a while give me the MCU equivalent of Batman with Ace in Justice League Unlimited (look it up if you haven't seen it...)
I get what you mean, but it's not a lot to ask for even with Marvel. They actually have had depth here and there. Even if we do want escapism... I mean, my favorite escapism still makes me feel deeply. And that's what I want. Popcorn is great, once. (Except Star Wars, i think, for me.) And I enjoy Iron Man blowing up a tank or Thor defeating the Destroyer etc, but there was a point after Avengers where I wasn't as enthusiastic about the action scenes as I was hungry for character beats. One of my favorite sequences in Age of Ultron is the party. I loved it.
Infinity War and Endgame were just about perfect and the peak of the MCU in terms of mix of storytelling, characters, drama and grandeur has been hit no matter what they do, which influences some of the reaction to the stuff that comes after. Which is OK - Star Trek will never top Wrath of Khan and Spock's death and Star Wars can't top "I am a Jedi like my Father before me" and Vader's redemption as peak moments. You can still do great stuff, but you can't chase those once-in-a-franchise moments when everything comes together and try to beat it.
This is a fantastic point. I remember when Phantom Menace came out and one of my friends said Maul was 'no Vader', and I said "but he doesn't have to be. And to try and make another Vader would be pointless." It would fail. Even Kylo Ren... I felt like they knew they couldn't do another Vader, so they intentionally made him a weak copy. Maybe I give them too much credit, I dunno, but they showed Snoke as the true villain behind everything and Ren set-up in the first act as "oh crap, he's the new Vader" only to deconstruct that in the second act. Vader got deconstructed later I guess but wasn't defanged.
but yeah, IW and Endgame had some amazing character beats. yes, Thor showing up and demanding "bring me Thanos" is AWESOME. But made sooooooo much better by his journey over the previous hour and forty-five minutes. Or previous several movies even. In Endgame, they could have just had a time romp and played the greatest hits, but there was some heart in there for Thor, Cap, and Tony. And as much as I want Natasha in that final battle, her on the cliff with Clint... is admittedly beautiful and tragic.
So you -have- to explain where the hell they are.
You don't really. Audiences can accept that they're just watching a Spider-Man movie and not be confused why there's no Thor. Guest appearances should be a treat, not an expectation.
But I am on board with not every movie having to tie into the big bad or set up someone else's sequel. I don't think it happens a lot, but it's a real drag when it does.
You can still do great stuff, but you can't chase those once-in-a-franchise moments when everything comes together and try to beat it.
Exactly. We've seen a lot of proposed cinematic universes fumble on the attempt to duplicate the success of the Infinity Saga, and I'm not sure if we're not also note seeing Marvel fumble that same attempt.
That's basically where I'm coming from with my desire to have started new with an FF anchor series. Restocking the Avengers feels like chasing their own success.
I'll also stand with you on the wall defending the Fantastic Four. It hasn't always been great, but when it had been it's been really great. And in ways different than the Avrngers. Which is also kind of my point.
There's a Cracked After Hours video which details how successful foursomes (like the FF and Ninja Turtles) play off the four humors, and while done for laughs, it really does hammer home how the characters should be represented to really take advantage of what works so well for them.
You don't really. Audiences can accept that they're just watching a Spider-Man movie and not be confused why there's no Thor. Guest appearances should be a treat, not an expectation.
I agree with that. I know that was a thing with Iron Man 3, where some people were bringing up "why isn't Thor helping Tony?!" But... it's just not that big of a deal. Everyone's doing their own thing, and like you said it's a treat when they show up. I love a good team up, and am cool with stuff like Ragnarok, and when Spider-Man showed up in Infinity War is one of my all time favorite 'man that is so comic booky' moments in Marvel. He's in the area, it makes sense.
SpoilerStar Wars rant that has nothing to do with MarvelI love the OT, and I did enjoy the PT, but I also can nitpick them to death. Even the OT for sure. I can constantly think of ways to, at the very least, tighten up continuity. I would be open to a remake saga just for that reason. Cut the Luke/Leia kissing or the twin thing.... one has to go. And... I agree the ST is a failure, but not necessarily from conception. TFA, yes, it's lacking with originality, I can't argue that, but I felt like that was okay for the first movie as long as the other two take it in new directions. After I saw Last Jedi, I honestly couldn't answer how I felt about it. It took me a while to really decide if I was okay with it. And I've said before but part of that totally was because of stupid stuff like Star Wars never having flashbacks or slowmo before that movie. They weren't in the language of the saga! But also, it purposely broke a lot of other Star Wars rules. And I didn't realize one of the plots was just gonna be a slow chase with capital ships running out of fuel. It felt like a small plot to me because it was like a BSG episode. but again, that's what I brought into the theater with me. but I knew that if the third part was excellent, it would only elevate the other two. They went another way.
The concept was a disaster.
A - The story seemed to be "remake Star Wars" which was about as cynical and bereft of a story reason as possible. A summary of the main plot of the ST can be accurate and indistinguishable from the OT:
"An orphan on a desert planet meets characters fleeing a fascist power run by a shadowy evil leader, whose military is supplemented by a powerful evil knight, and has constructed a planet destroying superweapon. The hero and team flee on an old spaceship, meeting its crew of smugglers. Our hero bonds with a mentor who explains some backstory and learns snippets about destiny and a mystical power they may have. They infiltrate a military base, where the mentor gets killed by powerful evil knight. After the superweapon destroys a planet, the rebels attack the base, destroying it via a chain reaction, saving the day. In the next film, the rebels are constantly under attack from the fascist power, and our hero meets an even greater mentor for training - but the mentor isn't what they expected and eventually our hero leaves to help their friends. Meanwhile, an unexpected connection starts to develop between our hero and the evil knight even as they battle. In the final film, the shadowy evil leader is revealed to be building even greater superweapons, so the rebels need a last-ditch battle to defeat them and destroy the superweapons. Meanwhile the hero and the evil knight's bond brings the evil knight to the side of good long enough to confront and help destroy the evil leader, even as it costs him his life."
B - I wouldn't have minded the "remake" nature if it hadn't completely undermined the "conclusion" of the PT and OT and made all of that seem, in this bigger story, like a step along the way to the real conclusion.
C - You bring back Han, Leia and Luke and they never interact (Leia and Han briefly). This is storytelling insanity. If 10 years from now they get Downey, Hemsworth and Evans back for a trilogy of Avengers films in the MCU, how insane would it be for them to not interact at all and to start out with all three miserable and broken and estranged from each. Terrible. And with Fisher's passing, it can never happen now.
Everything about the storytelling failures in those films is summed up in the scene after Han's death, where Leia hugs Rey as Chewy walks past them. No sense of the characters - Leia and Chewy in any well written version would go to each other first and would show some actual grief.
I get what you mean, but it's not a lot to ask for even with Marvel. They actually have had depth here and there. Even if we do want escapism... I mean, my favorite escapism still makes me feel deeply. And that's what I want. Popcorn is great, once.
Yep, just a little here and there. I was thinking that you need the biggest threat in the first film because we are still getting to know the characters - it is hard to get too emotionally attached to characters in popcorn films in two hours as so much of the storytelling is plot and action. Its why no one really gets misty-eyed when Ben is killed in Star Wars (maybe that changes if you truly watched them as kind in story order and Obi-Wan is the hero you grew up with) - he is as much plot point as character. So the story is the threat. You can actually pull back on the action and threat in later films because by then you have more connection to the characters. No one cares that Quicksilver dies in Age of Ultron, but I do care about Nat's and Tony's death in Endgame. (The counter to this is that they had me with Steve and Peggy in the first Cap, which was more of a character study in some ways - plus the end with Steve waking in the present and culminating in his forlorn delivery of "I had a date" was an absolute perfect line.)
I'll also stand with you on the wall defending the Fantastic Four. It hasn't always been great, but when it had been it's been really great.
Yep - I could make the case that unlike most long running titles, the first creative team and run might still be the best run on the title (Granted, reading 60's era comics can be a little tough at times anymore). Pretty much every other major title has had a run or story that came along after the initial creators that built on and surpassed the initial stories. At best, other FF runs (like Byrne) may have matched the Lee-Kirby years but even then, the defining FF stories like Galactus was 60 years ago.
It is hard to find the FF equivalent of the Dark Knight Returns or Death of Gwen Stacy or the Phoenix saga; or creators like Simonson Thor or Miller DD or Moore Swamp Thing reinvigorating the characters/looks/style. The point being, it has been underwhelming at times but it set a high bar way back, and hasn't (I feel) had someone create the optimal, clear consensus, "you gotta read this if you like comics" FF storyline since then. But the potential is there.
Moon Knight and Falcon & Winter Soldier Disney+ series next to be released on Bluray/4K. April 30.
Interesting as it jumps over Hawkeye, which has not been announced yet.
Maybe they'll release Hawkeye and Echo the same week? They had leapfrogged over F&WS last time too though.
As I said in the Star Wars thread, I haven't been collecting movies as much lately and really become a lazy streaming viewer. Which kinda sucks because I was CRAZY about collecting movies. I used to buy three or four dvds a week for years, especially back when Half.com was a thing. I haven't bought anything since Phase 3 ended though aside from No Way Home and that was because I assumed D+ would never get it.
I guess I'm really locked into D+ now.
Dakota Johnson said she probably won't do a movie like Madame Web again. She also made comments about movies done by committee never working but also that people won't go see films done by AI. Was Madame Web written by chatgpt? That would explain a lot, heh.
It's time to speak my truth. I saw Madame Web and thought it was a pretty solid movie. I kept waiting for it to be as awful as everybody was saying, and it just never was.
There were a couple scenes I could've done without, and the dialog skewed toward exposition, but it had a decent villain, understandable stakes, and a believable arc for Cassandra.
There weren't any cheer out loud Hell yeah moments, but it was far from the worst Spider-Man movie I've seen.
Can you explain why you felt the villain was decent? Genuinely curious, because I don't think a more inept villain - character, actor, story, performance - has been immortalized in a comic book movie.
I saw Madame Web opening night and I enjoyed it. It is a bad movie, but it's rarely not entertaining, except when the villain is ADR-ing his way through another awful scene. I still give props to Dakota for putting in a unique WTF performance.
@schizm, I only mean in character motivation. It's a rehash of the guy who causes his own doom by trying to prevent his doom, but at least it's an understandable motivation. Compare to Malekith, Zemo or Venom ("he got me fired") and he's miles ahead.
I didn't even see him as especially incompetent either; he just came across as someone unprepared to deal with a clairvoyant.*
* I make no apologies for the grenade, though. That was dumb.
Where do you guys rate MW compared to the other non-Spider-Man Sony Spider-Man movies?
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