@panthercult, I even pinch zoomed on it to make sure it *wasn't* a laughing face. I just thought "man, PC really objects to this topic."
I think the first time I really thought about this sort of thing was with the Trek movies. I've always ignored 1 and 5, real easy.
Star Trek might be the epitome of this with different timelines and so on. I can't decide if I want to track down Picard for instance, and I eventually gave up on Voyager and Enterprise after a season or two. I think I would keep all the TOS films (I like 1, especially with the effects cleaned up) along with TOS, then add TNG (not sure about the films, I think All Good Things ended that series fine) and DS9. After that... not sure.
I'm back with head canon for one of my all-time favorite franchises: Star Trek:
TOS is untouched.
The ONLY Star Trek movie to ever be produced is The Wrath of Khan. This movie is needed because TOS was still the victim of early cancellation and this movie serves as good closure for the crew. Even if Spock dies at the end, there is still an optimism there with him landing on the Genesis planet. You MIGHT convince me to keep the rest of the TOS movies, but the TNG movies are wiped out. They weren't that good, even the best of them, First Contact, we can do without.
TNG (one of the best TV shows ever) is untouched, even the seventh season were you can tell it's time they wrap things up. The final episode, "All Good Things..." is the last time we ever hear from that crew because the final scene is perfect. And since there are no movies to ruin that crew's ending, there is no need for Picard S3, as welcome as it was.
DS9 (arguably the best Trek ever) is untouched.
Voyager still happens, still gets seven seasons, still has the same crew (mostly), still lost in the Delta Quadrant, but there is a lot of reimagining needed. I stuck with that show to the end, but there is A LOT that I wish was handled differently. This could have its own thread....
The rest of Star Trek didn't happen because after Voyager, unfortunately, ST became a series of prequels and reboots and Star Trek is a show that goes FORWARD. Star Trek still exists today but they are another 100 years in the future from 90's Trek. New characters, new aliens, new stories, new technology, nothing rooted into Kirk or Spock or Picard, no prequels.......the franchise is going FORWARD, not back.
DS9 (arguably the best Trek ever) is untouched.
Can I vote to have Dr. Bashir NOT be revealed as a genetically engineered superman? I really liked him as an enthusiastic everyman.
Star Trek still exists today but they are another 100 years in the future from 90's Trek. New characters, new aliens, new stories, new technology, nothing rooted into Kirk or Spock or Picard, no prequels.......the franchise is going FORWARD, not back.
I do think there's a place for a good prequel. I really liked Enterprise and seeing the foundation of the Federation.
There's something about Star Trek where I'm more attached to the setting than the characters. Like, I don't want Kirk and Picard figures in the same way that I want Luke and Anakin figures. My ideal Star Wars figures is "dang, that's a really good Hayden likeness" where my ideal Star Trek figure is "dang, look at all these swappable parts I can use to create my own crew."
I've started a couple times to share some of the notes I have for how I would have liked to have seen the MCU go after Endgame, but I keep getting really long-winded about it and I'm not really that cruel. So I'm going to give it one last go and see if I can just stick to the highlights.
First off, the entire Infinity Stone Saga was great and I've no notes on changing any of that. Endgame (and its denouement shows Far From Home, WandaVision and, eventually, GotGv3) gave the Phase 1 and 2 characters pretty satisfying conclusions and I'm content to leave it at that. Going forward, though:
Phase 4:
WandaVision - Agatha is a friend trying to help Wanda. It's *just* Wanda learning that her grief has lead her to unconsciously enslave a town to live out her idealized reality. No big bad villain needed. Also, we explicitly say that Monica getting converted back and forth to TV signals during multiple crossings of the Hex gave her the ability to change into an electromagnetic form. I mean, It was right there!
Falcon & Winter Soldier - Sam does not become Captain America. Instead of becoming the 2nd or 3rd coolest Captain, he stays the 1st coolest Falcon. In the end, he publicly gives the shield to Isaiah Bradley in recognition of his service in the war.
Loki - No Sylvie. Instead it's just Loki, the God of Mischief, objecting to attempts to prune him after Endgame and going on the revenge spree to strike back at the Time Keepers and He Who Remains. Loki should be the prime motivator in his own series, after all.
Multiverse of Madness - Strange's big lesson is that his ego lead him to make the wrong call in Infinity War. Discovering a Utopia Earth where he had sacrificed himself to stop Thanos reveals that his need to always be the one holding the knife doomed his Earth to a worse outcome. So many of those elements are already in the movie, I have to think it was the original plan before they decided to make Wanda the main character.
Ms. Marvel - Instead of hinting at her being a mutant, we tie Kamala more directly to the Kree. The bangle is a Kree artifact that found its way into Pakistan from the (relatively) nearby Great Refuge of the Inhumans. Maybe Bruno even finds some Kree or Inhuman blood in her to explain how she can use the bangle.
Fantastic Four - It's called Phase Four! How were we not ready with a Fantastic Four movie when we got here? So much of this phase includes FF elements like Black Panther and Namor, Agatha Harkness, even She-Hulk. I'm even prepared to argue that the Eternals movie should've been replaced with a better attempt at the Inhumans. Anyways, an old pitch I'd had for an FF movie had them returning from 60 years lost in hyperspace to discover a Secret Invasion of Skrulls on Earth. Could probably still work in the MCU.
She-Hulk - There's value in introducing She-Hulk in an Ally McBeal-like legal dramedy, but this wasn't it. Get someone with real legal knowledge to write some actual court scenes that explore how people with superpowers affect the legal system. Meanwhile, Jennifer slowly realizes that she *likes* being She-Hulk as it lets her be the dominant, assertive woman she's always wanted to be. As for a series villain, the Intelligencia appeared to be a fine foil for She-Hulk until they Ha-Ha'd the ending away. I would've liked to have seen the Leader or Headmen appear in the finale.
Werewolf by Night - Only note is to change the title to Elsa Bloodstone. She had the more intriguing story here, having to compete for her own family legacy, and it would've kept me from waiting the entire movie for Jack to become the werewolf that I knew he was going to become since it was in the title. (Still, great show)
Wakanda Forever - Delete Ironheart and instead have Wakanda and Talokan go to war over something like a Wakanda-sponsored desalinization plant designed to improve life in Saharan Africa lead to unintended consequences in the sea. Bonus points for an end-credit scene that shows it was all caused by manipulations from Dr. Doom.
Phase 5:
Quantumania - I've talked about this in a different post, but basically I would've liked to have seen the first act at least taking place in the real world before fully committing to the Microverse. More importantly replace Kang with a different variant so that we don't show our Saga's big bad already defeated by just two Avengers. I recommend either Immortus or, with a little poetic license, Prince Wayfinder / The Enigma Force. A character from Micronauts who was literally called Time Traveler.
Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3 - A pretty perfect movie with almost no changes except that I would have the High Evolutionary be from Earth. If nothing else it would explain why his planet is called Counter Earth and why it's filled with Earth critters. It could also directly inspire Peter to go back home to his family. Side note, I'm not convinced Love & Thunder even needed to happen. As needed, we can just include the scene of them parting ways at the start of this movie.
The Marvels - Missed opportunity to not include Carol's own Kang-variant son, Marcus. Either as a replacement for Dar-Benn or working alongside her.
Thunderbolts - another pitch I talked about in a different thread, but generally agree with those who want this to be a Dark Avengers movie. My pitch is having the government recruit super beings who superficially remind the public of the Avengers but who are easier to control. Then they have to stop WWIII from breaking out between all the new nations we've discovered lately - Wakanda, Talokan, New Asgard, and Skrulls (who, spoilers, are stranded on Earth after losing their shapeshifting powers in my Fantastic Four story).
Future Ideas:
I've padded out the Saga with things like a solo Dr. Doom movie where he recovers Latveria after a coup, a couple Fantastic Four sequels (#2 vs. Galactus, #3 finally facing off against Dr. Doom), and a Silver Surfer movie where he has to deal with being trapped on Earth while Mephisto tries to claim his soul for all the death he's caused as one of Galactus' heralds. Somewhere in there is Dr. Strange #3 versus the Six-Fingered hand and an opportunity to team up with Namor, Silver Surfer and maybe even the Hulk.
I think a Richard Rider Nova trilogy would fit here well (Sphinx definitely, and there's probably enough to do a decent Annihilation Wave), a Spider-Woman movie or two, and a movie to at least introduce Captain Britain to bridge this and the next saga. And as long as I'm pretending to be in charge, we'll make room for a Rangers movie as a fusion of superhero and Western films. They're a favorite team of mine from the comics and I have so many ideas. Their first outing is against the insidious Secret Empire.
I'd have Blade just be another Halloween Special, creating an annual tradition that could make a running "Midnight Sons" arc to eventually include Danny Ketch Ghost Rider and Dr. Voodoo, then a big team-up Disney+ movie including Elsa Bloodstone, Moon Knight, Agatha Harkness, and Giant-Sized Man-Thing. Actually, let's put Wong in there too. She-Hulk season 2 could introduce Project Pegasus as a laboratory that questionably imprisons super-villains to study their powers, and Unlimited Class Wrestling as another exploration of how the world is adapting to people with superpowers.
Everything still culminates with the final showdown with Kang and, presumably, Secret War, although without any of the "let's get back the old actors for nostalgia cameos" thing that I find absolutely played out. Then we wrap things up in time for the Extinction Saga and the introduction of mutants. In addition to the X-Men, there's room here for Alpha Flight, Excalibur, and maybe just squeeze in the 3rd Captain Marvel movie to include a Kree / Shi'ar War.
That was actually still more writing than I'd intended.
And now that I see it all typed out like that, I look like a crazy person.
Loved almost all the Dini/Timm DCAU and even enjoyed the Epilogue episode's Royal Flush/Batman story, but the reveal that Terry was Bruce's son was too coincidental and stupid for me.
Also, any of the weird shipping between Barbara and Bruce.
So, Fletch, just FYI - I appreciated the sharing of your ideas and think some of those suggestions would have made fine changes that could have made a stronger MCU overall.
And that's the kind of thing I think is great - but it's sort of why I think maybe this thread title is perhaps misnamed. Because those are all awesome ideas - but that's not really your "head canon". You don't go around saying - "Well in MY MCU this is what's happening" and just keep extrapolating your own stories infinitely diverging from what is actually being produced... refusing to watch any new MCU content - right?
Discussing things they could have done differently and offering alternate ideas is fun. Flat out refusing to acknowledge that the actual ongoing stories exist is something else.
DS9 (arguably the best Trek ever) is untouched.
Can I vote to have Dr. Bashir NOT be revealed as a genetically engineered superman? I really liked him as an enthusiastic everyman.
Yes, you can vote for that. That out-of-nowhere storyline did nothing for me, it didn't really need to happen. Even the actor commented on not being a huge fan. Fortunately it's not a huge in-your-face story element and can kind of be overlooked.
Even the best shows have their missteps.
And that's the kind of thing I think is great - but it's sort of why I think maybe this thread title is perhaps misnamed. Because those are all awesome ideas - but that's not really your "head canon". You don't go around saying - "Well in MY MCU this is what's happening" and just keep extrapolating your own stories infinitely diverging from what is actually being produced... refusing to watch any new MCU content - right?
Discussing things they could have done differently and offering alternate ideas is fun. Flat out refusing to acknowledge that the actual ongoing stories exist is something else.
Granted, I didn't spend a lot of time naming this thread, but the second half of the thread title is important, that for franchises that are now 40, 50, 60 years old and producing new material, has it reached a jumping off point for anyone? And if so why?
There is essentially no one on Earth under the age of 50 who saw the first Star Wars in theaters. And the first film could have been a stand-alone story - if someone liked it and didn't care about seeing more or following along, that film on its own could be Star Wars for them - a Star Wars where Darth Vader killed Luke's father, Leia and Luke are not related, the Emperor is an unknown quantity, etc. - because that is what's there in that film. I find that possibility interesting. For more than half my life the official story was that the Emperor died at the end of RotJ. Do I have to think when I watch RotJ now that the story isn't over because 35 years later, the official story becomes the Emperor will return? That the fact the ending of RotJ that resonated with me in the moment when I first saw it - knowing that Luke and his Dad won - was not the "real" ending? Or can I be happier thinking that what was "the truth" for so long for me remains "the truth", even though I know that is my choice and not the official cannon?
I think you are reading alot into this which was not in the first post - never said anything about extrapolating new stories or creating my own story about what happened, or refusing to watch, or denying the official story, as much as just not caring about the extended story and possibly being happy with where things had been left at some point in the past.
The analogy to this is like a band that had been putting out records for decades, changing the lineup, changing the style - do be a fan of that band do I have to like all of it, or can I like a certain era or lineup of run of albums? The other way of looking at this is if someone said they wanted to start reading X-Men, do they need to start with X-Men #1 from 1963? Or is a recommendation to start with GS X-Men #1 valid, or Astonishing X-Men, or New X-Men, or some other point? I accept that Jean Grey came back after Phoenix died, but I can also respect that someone who (like me) read those stories in real time might have been disappointed they brought her back given how impactful that storyline was.
Anyway, I think people not wanting to follow a story wherever it goes over 50 years is usually more about the fact the story as it had been mattered to them, so it is respecting the original artistic intent and/or the audiences reaction to it, more than rejecting future stories...
First of all - I don't mean any of this conversation to be rancorous, so I apologize if my tone has ever come off as uncivil or unduly argumentative.
Second - I do understand the concept of hopping off the train. I alluded to that in in my reference to the Dune novels. I loved the first 5 Dune novels written by Frank Herbert (I know he wrote 6). I liked them so much that when his son decided to revisit the space and write prequels and sequels I picked some of those up to read... I read a handful before I couldn't take any more. Apparently they published TWENTY that Frank didn't write. I don't know what's in alot of them. So I understand the concept you're getting at.
So the conversation you're interested in here is where do people draw their own personal boundaries for what they care to know and what they don't. And that's an interesting conversation with value, for sure.
I suppose it's the use of the word "canon" that threw me off for the discussion. Because the very definition of that word means "officially included" - there can, essentially, definitionally only be one canon. The owner/controller of the IP gets to define what is and isn't included.
Just because I ignored the 16 or so other Dune books that got written doesn't mean they aren't official Dune canon. I can argue they aren't meaningful to ME, because I didn't read them and Frank didn't write them - but as far as the people who control Dune as a property are concerned all twenty six books count. I can dismiss them as less important but in a conversation about the wider Dune universe facts from those books would be valid to use and my ignorance or dismissal of them isn't valuable for that conversation.
So again, I'm not trying to be the conversation police. I'm not trying to control what other people think or believe. But I can get in the weeds when people use a word to mean something other than what that word means. Don't get me started on people who use the word "literally" to mean the exact opposite of what the word actually means. Sigh.
Technically the title of the thread is referencing shooting a metal ball from one's skull.
Granted, I didn't spend a lot of time naming this thread, but the second half of the thread title is important, that for franchises that are now 40, 50, 60 years old and producing new material, has it reached a jumping off point for anyone? And if so why?
There is essentially no one on Earth under the age of 50 who saw the first Star Wars in theaters. And the first film could have been a stand-alone story - if someone liked it and didn't care about seeing more or following along, that film on its own could be Star Wars for them - a Star Wars where Darth Vader killed Luke's father, Leia and Luke are not related, the Emperor is an unknown quantity, etc. - because that is what's there in that film. I find that possibility interesting. For more than half my life the official story was that the Emperor died at the end of RotJ. Do I have to think when I watch RotJ now that the story isn't over because 35 years later, the official story becomes the Emperor will return? That the fact the ending of RotJ that resonated with me in the moment when I first saw it - knowing that Luke and his Dad won - was not the "real" ending? Or can I be happier thinking that what was "the truth" for so long for me remains "the truth", even though I know that is my choice and not the official cannon?
I think you are reading alot into this which was not in the first post - never said anything about extrapolating new stories or creating my own story about what happened, or refusing to watch, or denying the official story, as much as just not caring about the extended story and possibly being happy with where things had been left at some point in the past.
The analogy to this is like a band that had been putting out records for decades, changing the lineup, changing the style - do be a fan of that band do I have to like all of it, or can I like a certain era or lineup of run of albums? The other way of looking at this is if someone said they wanted to start reading X-Men, do they need to start with X-Men #1 from 1963? Or is a recommendation to start with GS X-Men #1 valid, or Astonishing X-Men, or New X-Men, or some other point? I accept that Jean Grey came back after Phoenix died, but I can also respect that someone who (like me) read those stories in real time might have been disappointed they brought her back given how impactful that storyline was.
Anyway, I think people not wanting to follow a story wherever it goes over 50 years is usually more about the fact the story as it had been mattered to them, so it is respecting the original artistic intent and/or the audiences reaction to it, more than rejecting future stories...
I still enjoy this premise for a discussion.
Honestly... For me, I STILL struggle with anything after Empire. I can actually deal with the prequels until it's twins. The twin thing STILL really bothers me. Especially once I learned Lucas's original plans to have episode 6 be about rescuing Han then 7-9 being about searching for his lost sister, defeating Vader, then the Emperor. It's that sort of thing that makes me eager for a total reboot. There are great things in ROTJ, but Leia being his sister is not one of them. Also, yeah, Boba Fett being set up as a significant villain then getting literally tossed away is something I never got over.
So sometimes my head canon is still stuck in 1980. But I still try all of them at least. Something like X-Men, I read all of claremonts run and haven't enjoyed much that I read after he left so I kinda consider that my canon with it ending with a real mother of a blowout against the shadowking. Before the other series even began. That's my jump off point, and with a lot of things I prefer one.
Technically the title of the thread is referencing shooting a metal ball from one's skull.
LOL... you know what you got me there. I've been arguing about the wrong thing entirely. 🤣
First of all - I don't mean any of this conversation to be rancorous, so I apologize if my tone has ever come off as uncivil or unduly argumentative.
No worries, like Fletch I didn't read the emoji as laughing so was a little confused why you seemed bothered by what I thought was pretty innocuous topic...but was not upset about it. Just was more wondering why? Which I think I finally figured out from this post.
I suppose it's the use of the word "canon" that threw me off for the discussion. Because the very definition of that word means "officially included" - there can, essentially, definitionally only be one canon. The owner/controller of the IP gets to define what is and isn't included.
That's fair, and given I misspelled canon you can probably just assume I am barely literate. But canon and constantly expanding stories are probably incompatible concepts as I disagree that something is automatically canon by merely existing and being declared so by the person trying to sell media to me.
Especially as there is a valid perspective that canon for any fictional world should only include things developed by the original creator (I don't agree per se but it is a defensible position), or maybe only things released in the original medium - so for Star Wars nothing is canon until it is film or tv show; everything else - games, books, comics content - only become canon if referenced in a film/tv show (I sort of agree with this). This is the rationale for Lucasfilm "dis-canon-ifying" 20 years of the EU yet still pulling characters/ideas from it for film and tv.
But one part of canon is that it is more or less agreed upon by either experts or a governing body. For modern franchises I can see the argument the IP owner can set the canon as everything they release. But I'd argue that the more accurate term for covering everything that is part of an official franchise is the corpus, which frees up canon to be the foundational and core stuff that there is consensus on as being "required".
Because part of the issue I think is that if everything is "canon", then as new pieces expand the concepts and characters and points of view story goals can change as well - so it is a moving target as to what is the story, which kind of contradicts the idea that a canon is locked and set.
Technically the title of the thread is referencing shooting a metal ball from one's skull.
Wow, taking heavy fire from all sides...
Anyway, I think you mean "Literally, the title of the thread is referencing shooting a metal ball from one's skull."
There are great things in ROTJ, but Leia being his sister is not one of them.
I always felt that solved three narrative issues for Lucas.
1 - Concludes the setup from TESB when Yoda says "There is another" - which Lucas only dropped in there as he was protecting his franchise against being locked into any one actor, given he almost lost his lead in Mark Hamill from the car accident he had between ANH and TESB.
2 - It solves the "love triangle" among Leia, Luke, Han without Luke "losing" the girl to his best friend.
3 - It provides the reason for Luke to go off on Vader - Luke needed something personal to fight for given he entered the situation trying to turn his father back, and the need to protect Leia from becoming Vader's target meant he couldn't fail in his fight with Vader without endangering her even more. More evidence how Luke would never turn his back on his friends and run away and hide and think about killing his nephew...
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