Pro-wrestling Discussion

I keep seeing people comment about Drew rushing out of the ring when Punk showed up, but there's fan video of him leaving BEFORE Punk showed up. Seth also had a camera crew on him for all of his blow ups, so that's DEFINITELY going to be a feud.

Drew leaving like he did does play into his comments on RAW about how the JD failed on their promise to him about giving him Jey Uso.

The end of Punks promo where he said "I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to make money" into the camera makes me think he's gonna go heel pretty quick. And I had a feeling he was gonna be neutered on WWE. He sounded like he was reading a script. Watching him on AEW I could tell when he was winging it, which was almost always. That 5 minutes they gave him just didn't feel like him. And the rest of the show bored me. I wasn't invested in any of them. Randy Orton being back made it a little better, but the main event was him throwing Dom around for 10 minutes. I guess I'm used to AEW where they have 5 star matches on TV. There were more backstage segments then matches. And the matches were all mediocre at best. I was even super happy to see Natalya still around and was looking forward to that match, but it also was a let down. Most of the guys I liked and cared about in WWE are on AEW now, and I absolutely see the difference. I will probably watch Smackdown and see how it fairs. If I don't like it much either I may just stick to watching Punks segments. And if those and his matches are bad because of his hand holding then I'll check back out. And gods I hate Micheal Cole. I always have. His voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me. And he apparently is commentary on Smackdown too? Listening to him for 5+ hours a week may just make me crazier then I already am. The only thing I actually enjoyed about Raw was seeing Cody again, and I was always indifferent to his existence.

Posted by: @trunks3540

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The end of Punks promo where he said "I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to make money" into the camera makes me think he's gonna go heel pretty quick. And I had a feeling he was gonna be neutered on WWE. He sounded like he was reading a script. 

I think that was the point, and given his promo on SmackDown tonight, I think they are positioning him as a true wildcard / agent of chaos out for himself - not face, not heel - which works best I think, so the fans annoyed with him can take him as being insincere and boo, and those who like him can cheer his snark. Which is great as it really feels like Punk is a major shake-up to the status quo and they can go a lot of ways, which when you also have Drew heating up as a heel, and LA Knight as a face, they have a lot of options (Randy, Kevin, Jey, Bobby, Sami, etc.) who could carry the torch for a while... Which is even more reason to take the title off of Roman and/or Seth and/or Gunther, let someone else cook for a bit.

And they are already teasing what is a great potential story - Roman saying he won't grant Cody a rematch, Seth saying Punk doesn't deserve a title match, so both need to win the Rumble to get their WrestleMania moment. Do they tie, or do you have Punk win and pick Seth, then let Cody have to earn his shot vs Roman via Elimination Chamber. 

So I watched 2 Raw and 2 Smackdown now, since Punks return, and I can say that AEW definitely has better wrestling. Like it's night and day. The tournament matches for AEW alone are better then anything I've seen on WWE. The only ones that still come close are the Seth and Jey match, and the Drew and Sammy match. Those were decent. But they still didn't beat even some of the mediocre matches AEW puts on. I think that's why it bores me a bit, cause I love the wrestling aspect. The stories are fine, but if they suck I can ignore them. But if the matches suck, I lose interest. I'm pretty sure that's why I stopped watching years ago when I did. The only good matches were on PPV, and even some of those were trash. I'll see how this story with Punk develops, but honestly I still could care less about most of the rest of the roster. I saw a little bit of light with the LA Knight match, but it was too short and it was just some small pieces here and there.

But then you have like that Bryan vs Andrade match on Collision. How is AEW not getting more viewers? Is it on purpose that they only have half the arena full? The hard cam side is empty alot of the time. But they are consistently putting on PPV level matches, even on Rampage sometimes. It's crazy. Both Bryan matches this week were fantastic. And most of the other mid card matches were still really good. I'm baffled.

Punk has ruined his own legacy for me. I really don't care where he goes or what he does. And he's DEFINITELY not 'must-see' enough to get me to watch WWE's fucking horrible current product with that absolute ghoul of an owner/president/whatever that keeps finding ways to force himself back into the company like he forces himself on every woman he meets. I won't go near any WWE product or do anything that would make them any money for as long as they refuse to publicly disavow McMahon. If that's forever - cool. I don't care about wrestling -that much-.

As for Punk... I watched everything he did at AEW and let me be clear AS A FAN of Punk up until the most recent punch-up: His matches were mostly not great, in terms of the actual wrestling. He managed some really good story and engagement, for sure. But Punk spent too much time on the injured list and not enough time actually shaking the ring rust to ever get to a point where he was even comparable to his skill level in WWE. He just wasn't all that entertaining to watch wrestle. It all came from the stories and the promos. But now that I find him tedious and awful, I don't really want to hear him talk -- literally the only thing he was really doing at a high level recently.

I'm looking forward to Ospreay in AEW. His matches for them prior to signing have all been fantastic. Hoping House of Black gets a bigger push than they're currently getting (poor fucking Buddy has to CONSTANTLY lose). I'm concerned about the direction of the Continental Classic because it really looks like they're pushing Moxley hard and my feelings about him are well known. Not super happy with how much they've shit on Jay White -- that loss to an 'injured' MJF was fucking disgusting.

BUT, because I've whined about it for a long time now I do have to give credit where it's due; LOVE that they hung a strap on Julia and I hope she keeps it for a good while. In fact, I'm also hoping Statlander leaves it alone and moves on to the main women's title picture because I think she deserves to be champ. I love Toni Storm's new shtick, but I actually think it works better when she's NOT champion, so 'champ Toni' is already wearing on me.

Most of all, I really just want AEW to bring back storylines for more than just like two people at a time. That's hyperbole of course, but it does feel like a lot of talent is just ... roaming around waiting to get random matches. And many of the main stories involve titles rather than feuds just between different wrestlers (the only current exception I could think of is Page/Swerve). AEW has a huge roster, but it's a really good roster. And what they really need to do is remember that certain guys don't need to be on every show, every week. Tell Moxley to fuck off for a week. Bryan too. You've got a big enough roster to do more and give guys more time off at the same time. It's not like the audience is going to forget who Bryan Danielson or Jon Moxley are in a week.

There's a lot of talented guys and gals on the roster that deserve more TV time, and for that TV time to be more than a 30 second match that they lose.

I almost think they're setting up for Kingston to run the rest of the gambit. He picks up the next 2 victories, and somehow manages to win the Blue League, and then they have Mox win the Gold League, and those 2 go head to head, friend vs friend. And Eddie somehow wins. Either that or Bryan vs Mox with BCC vs BCC and Bryan wins. I can't see Swerve wanting to do RoH, AEW and New Japan. And while Swerve is good and hitting his stride, I don't think he's triple crown material. The only reason I think Eddie may win it is cause NJPW may not want their belt changing hands in a different country, let alone a different promotion. But if it does, Mox probably wouldn't be the guy to do it either. Since this is Bryan's last full year, A, you'll have to damn near kill him to keep him out of the ring, and B, it'd be a nice send-off to have him be a triple crown for a while and then lose it all and semi retire.

Punks matches were getting better. His early ones were mediocre, but he was starting to get his groove back. Then Jungle Jerk and the Elite happened. But his match at Wembly with Joe was the best one I saw him do outside the dog collar match with MJF. That's why I'm watching optimistically. But if his matches are less then stellar, I'll probably give up on WWE again. They don't even have to be 5 stars. Just, entertaining. Good storytelling. Interesting. And alot of WWE now just isn't. So I'll just watch and see.

Vince was always a perv. It was just more acceptable back then, especially with rich ass holes. Things have changed since the 90s. He can't get away with that shit anymore. Luckily it seems he's gone for good now. But who knows on that too. He deserved much worse then what he did get that's for sure. 

I think many WWE wrestlers put on great matches fairly regularly, they just use a more muted style in terms of high impact spots on regular TV. Given the abuse wrestlers take from normal moves, I actually prefer that they are not doing too much every match as I think it is in their own best interests to save the extreme spots and top workrate for special matches. I think AEW would be serving its wrestlers better to pull back a bit in that regard. I also could argue that too many big spots lessen those spots and actually makes things seem less real instead of more real - although I think both companies go to the false finish, kick-out after the guy should be dead, spots too often. 

In particular, I dislike blurring the injury lines like Danielson is doing these days - as noted in a previous conversation, me worrying that Danielson the person is actually hurt and risking long-term harm is different that Danielson the performer selling an injury as part of a wrestling match. 

But I admit I like the storytelling the most - otherwise I am just watching stunt people doing stunts I guess. Even in "real" sports, I am not invested in baseball as its own activity enough to watch any baseball game, but I am very invested in my team and games with a history or storyline behind it - like someone chasing a record.

So WWE to me is much improved the last year or so, even if HHH is too beholden to long title reigns, as there is some better depth and dynamics to the storytelling, the beefs seem more logical than "time to beef with someone new" once one program ends. 

But if it leads to a WrestleMania with Roman vs Cody, Seth vs Drew vs Punk, maybe Gunther vs Brock as final boss level for Gunther, Jey vs Jimmy, Rhea vs Bianca, Dom vs Rey, a looming Priest cash-in or a clash against Balor, maybe a Bailey led 4 Horsewomen vs Damage Control... I'm all for it.

Also, KD as a Malakai fan, look for Zelina's prank call to Kofi on her Instgram. He arrives at the end, looks suitably bemised/baffled, and walks out in a great cameo. I will add he moved up a few spots in my book as I didn't know they had like 10 cats. I suspect the guy has a more interesting personality than he gets to show in his character.

I probably misspoke a little. I'm sure it wasn't more acceptable. More to your point, it was harder to prove, so people just dismissed it as rumor, and more so ignored by people as a consequence. I have usually been able to separate the art from the artist though. I feel like if I didn't there would be alot of things I wouldn't watch and enjoy because of one twat or another. There are a bunch of just terrible people who did terrible things everywhere you look. From just ass holes irl to straight up murderers, rapists and racists. Ex. Mel Gibson, piece of shit. But alot of his movies were amazing. And that can be said for quite a few actors. Chris Benoit. I'm sure we all know what happened, but doesn't change the fact he was one of the best technical wrestlers of all time, to the point where some people still imitate his style. You wanna go into football, OJ Simpson. Pretty sure he did it. But he was still a great player in his day. I would never ask for an autograph or even try and share breathing space with these people. But I can acknowledge their accomplishments and enjoy things they were parts of. There is a line though, just not sure where it is, at least for me. I have nothing good to say about Hitler? Or Stalin. Hulk Hogan sucks at wrestling and acting. But for some reason he was extremely popular. Just because he's a racist pos that destroyed WCW I can still watch his matches. Most of them aren't that great though. Not sure what the hype was about him.

Posted by: @trunks3540

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I probably misspoke a little. I'm sure it wasn't more acceptable. 

To be fair, I do think some aspects was more - I don't know - tolerated by some or viewed as boys being boys or some gibberish - or people were more likely to accept excuses or that an incident was just a "misunderstanding" than we are today. Or at least I hope so for today, honestly, I wonder at times. 

So I get you're point - I probably shouldn't have pushed back on it. I just think it is a mistake we all make to look at the past and when looking at the worst parts and how justice is not always served to assume most people thought that something was OK at the time.  

No you're good. I probably didn't say it proper. I'm not always good with words. I mess them up when I say and type them sometimes. It doesn't always come out like it does in my head. I do think back then things were a little more lax when it came to those sort of things. But people were still probably unhappy. I vaguely remember him and his wife getting a divorce, so if they did I'm sure it had alot to do with his backstage behavior. But I do know people were alot better at covering those things up back then. Hence why some of these things don't come out till years later. Decades sometimes. And I'm sure there's alot more that happened that we don't and will never know about.

I stopped watching WWE around the time Punk left. It just got so boring. And I think Vince was losing touch with either the crowds, or reality in general. The only reason it's probably watchable for me right now is because HHH is in charge and he's been doing a better job. Not great, but better then it was. The last thing I remember from before I stopped was the Shield breaking up and the Wyatt family beginning. I was literally falling asleep during most of the show. And I don't fall asleep watching TV. So I just gave up on it. AEW reinvigorated my love for the sport. And going between the 2 is honestly still night and day. And I always was more interested in the matches then the stories. Not that the stories weren't a part of it. But the matches were always more interesting to me. Not 100% why.

Interesting story about WWE speaking with the Warner Bros/Discovery folks about the broadcast rights to Raw. WWE being on three networks would only help it (USA, TBS, CW) reach more people and monopolize things. So I think it would be a bad thing for the industry if WBD decided to go with WWE over AEW.

Not sure AEW, given its TV-14+ content, would be picked up by a network with the mainstream reach that TNT/TBS has and be kept in prime time, and WWE even talking to WBD has to undermine AEW's negotiating position in terms of how much AEW can ask for. AEW might thrive on a streaming platform where they aren't under as many restrictions for language and violence, and time flexibility - so leaving a network might help them in some ways?

I just watched RoH final battle, and I must say, even the RoH PPVs are better then WWE. I'm sure RoH weekly show isn't as good. But damn can they throw a PPV. I've watched all the RoH PPVs this year, and I've never been disappointed. There were a few matches here and there I could've lived without, and maybe 1 or 2 stinkers. But as a whole, their PPVs are really good.

Two weeks ago, KD wrote - 

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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I'm concerned about the direction of the Continental Classic because it really looks like they're pushing Moxley hard and my feelings about him are well known.

You've got a big enough roster to do more and give guys more time off at the same time. It's not like the audience is going to forget who Bryan Danielson or Jon Moxley are in a week.

And lo, it came to pass...

I am quoting this because I remembered reading it and thought to myself "there was no way they'd do that tournament and end up with Moxley in the final." So what do I know.

The Continental Classic was a great idea with fun matches, and fits perfectly into the AEW aesthetic of putting on matches just to focus on the ring work without needing a story beyond just good competition. I always like a tournament in wrestling as it is a good way to get some unexpected matches and start some new feuds, especially if you let heel vs heel and face vs face play out (which sadly WWE almost never does unless they intend to turn someone).

That it is going to come down to Moxley vs Kingston is such a huge waste of the premise to me - you could re-light that feud without this tournament. Because that whole tournament to "elevate" Kingston...? Not sure Kingston going over Danielson and then Moxley in consecutive matches makes much sense. But at the same time, why put any of those kind of meaningless titles on Moxley? I don't know, I don't care about either of them, and Kingston's character is just annoying to me.

I assumed once they went to the triple threat that was to let Strickland or White "shock" Moxley by having one pin the other, so they could protect Mox and keep him away from the pin. But why bother doing the three-way tie if you just are going ahead with Mox? Giving this tournament to White (or Claudio) gives them some instant stories and some new matchups with some stakes...

Eddie is Eddie. He really isn't a character. That's how he is irl, just slightly nicer, as long as you show respect and consideration. But what you see is who he actually is.

And I knew who was winning both leagues a few weeks ago. Honestly I think I knew after the first week but I was a little worried about my prediction when Eddie dropped his first match. And Eddie's probably gonna win the belts. I can't imagine NJPW having one of their big belts change hands on another continent, let alone another brand. Mox doesn't really need it either. While I don't think Eddie is a great wrestler, he puts in work when they ask him. And he's not getting any younger. I have a feeling he'll get the belts for a couple months and then lose them shortly thereafter. He may keep 1 of the AEW belts, but he'll probably lose at least 2 before summer. I also feel like this isn't necessarily trying to renew the rivalry. I think it may be trying to reignite their friendship. They have this stellar match, and then hug it out after, and be all chummy for a while, even possibly sewing seeds for a BCC breakup, although I wouldn't like that just yet. But when Bryan's gone, odds are BCC goes too. So they may be getting ready to start that wind down.

The fact is, you can't put Moxley in anything because Moxley is AEW's John Cena. He gets to go over everyone. He is basically billed as an unbeatable awesome badass that everyone should love. He can bury anyone he wants. And he's not actually a very good or entertaining wrestler. And he basically ruins every feud or storyline he gets anywhere near.

And yeah, this is extra dumb because they had ample opportunity to do the culmination of the Eddie/Mox feud (that I bet a lot of viewers barely remember was happening) without involving titles and tournaments. This match could have just happened. At any time. The whole point of a tournament like this should be to end up with matches that wouldn't typically happen (Claudio/Bryan was fantastic).

And here's my rant about Kingston: Kingston suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

Oh that's just how he is? Well then 'how he is' isn't a fucking wrestler, because he doesn't act like one. In fact, more than even Mox, Eddie might be the worst person any serious wrestling promotion can have. A guy that feels lazy in the ring and ACTIVELY shits on your product while he's engaged with it. I'm sure he thinks he's being clever or something. Like some fucking stupid gangster wannabe version of Stone Cold Steve Austin. But he isn't. Stone Cold took the product seriously. That's why his 'every man' character worked. Because he still acted like an every man that exists in this fantasy wrestling world.

Kingston acts like he's above all that. Like it's all kind of dumb and stupid. Oooh, promos are dumb. Oooh, your supernatural gimmick is stupid. He literally denigrates the PRODUCT ITSELF while he's ON it. What kind of fucking idiot promoter gives an idiot like that a microphone? Yeah, buddy, go out there and tell the crowd how stupid and pointless and fake everything we do is.

He's not a good wrestler. His promo work sucks. His personality is goofy while being SO fucking try-hard. There is nothing redeemable here. He's never had a 5-star match. He probably never will.

Mox and Kingston should get married and run off to create their own wrestling company where everyone just bleeds on everything and spends all their mic time making fun of the entire industry and how stupid it all is. I'm sure all thirty-seven people at the high school gymnasium will be incredibly impressed by how badass they pretend to be.

Edit: And in case that seems overly negative or harsh (it certainly is), I gotta be clear about where my vitriol towards guys like them comes from; wrestling is supposed to be FUN. At the very core of it, wrestling is a goofy concept. And the best parts are when they embrace that it just doesn't make any sense. Swerve once tried to MURDER Lee with a cinder block. House of Black are.. I dunno.. wizards? Undertaker is DEFINITELY a wizard and possibly a lich and he was both attacked by, and teamed up with, his horribly burned little brother. Edge and Christian are vampires that sometimes wear cheese hats. People literally put on a bunch of extra clothing just so they can look cool for a 20 second walk before taking it all off again. It's all RIDICULOUS.
But when you add in guys that insist on telling you it's ridiculous every chance they get, how can you 'believe in it' for that 2 hour window and just enjoy it?

If Stone Cold had gone around saying Kane and Undertaker had a dumb gimmick and their spooky shit was lame, and laughing at them all the time (just for example), it would have buried one of WWE's best, most interesting, and definitely longest-lasting gimmicks. It's that easy to ruin all the fun if you think your idea of 'my character is SO badass and REAL that I can't be bothered with this stuff and I refuse to actually engage with it as if it's real' is a good idea that has to be protected even at the cost of everyone else. That's John Cena logic and it ruined so many budding careers in WWE.