Pro-wrestling Discussion

@salemcrow Definitely. Although I don't know if it was that WWE wouldn't let him wrestle often enough so much as it was that WWE just didn't have anything creatively for him to do. I've gotta imagine that if someone of Edge's caliber and tenure said 'give me a match every two weeks' - he'd get it. With the issue more being who is left there for him to work with and what stories are they going to tell, and what can he do that he hasn't already done.

I think maybe there's even some matter of pride here where Adam wants to hold titles somewhere other than WWE to feel like his career was a legitimate wrestling career rather than just a WWE career, if that makes sense.

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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Honestly.. no matter what else happened I was going to walk away from WrestleDream fucking BEAMING because Adam Goddamn Copeland is All Elite.
That is so incredibly exciting to me, and something I never thought was ever going to happen as Edge felt like an Undertaker-style lifer.

I can't wait for everything that comes next.

Mark alert. 😀 

I think we probably had different core eras, I was most invested from the early-90's through the end of the Monday Night wars and ECW finally winding down, more or less losing interest once Michaels and Austin left WWE. So I had some of The Rock era but before Cena got big or Angle was big or Undertaker went Biker, and guys like Edge, Punk, Brock, Y2J or the Hardy's were starting out in WWE just around that point or a bit after. So most of the guys who have gone to AEW from that era, or returned to WWE, are not a draw for me as I missed their heyday - I get why they are for most though, so enjoy! Given Tony Khan's age, I suspect his core fan years (if in his 20's) was also the era just past mine.

I think WWE heard the criticism of having the older acts be more than special attractions, and have used guys like Brock, Edge and now Cena well as the story is simply they are that legends and they don't need any other motivation for a feud to be interesting. I'm not sure full-time that works with any wrestler, so overuse is a real thing. I liked how they used Edge and Trish - they didn't overshadow the current core but seemed like more than one-shots.

And I get why someone like Edge wants to go to AEW, he gets to engage with new wrestlers - I was thinking how this explains much of AEW's booking to me, that these guys get to share the ring with someone they hadn't before, sort of like an actor being excited to be in a production with a peer they haven't worked with. It is a dream match, or at least something new and different and energizing, for them, so good for them - but I think that doesn't translate always as being a dream match for the viewers. And in his case, if as said he and Christian really are best friends, that has to be fun for them both. I hope Christian goes nuclear on him. (As I understand it, Edge's Dad was not in the picture, so does that become fodder for Christian...?)

@fac I don't know how much of a 'core' era I really have, because I stayed pretty invested in wrestling all the way through. I would say I made most of my big wrestling memories between about '92-'99. That's the stuff I remember best. With a few scattered things from before then (The Rockers, Demolition) and a few big things from after then (Punk, some Ruthless Aggression stuff, etc). So you and I likely have the same 'core' era - I just latched onto different parts of it.

Edge was one of my favorite wrestlers pretty much from the moment he debuted. I was ALL about it. I loved the silent Goth dude shtick. I loved the Gangrel/Christian angle. I loved the Brood. I loved the early days of Edge + Christian, although I did lose interest for a while when they got goofy. And a lot of my big memories post-'99 are 'Rated R'-era Edge stuff. I'm definitely a huge mark for him. He's probably my second favorite wrestler of all time after Bret Hart.

@theknightdamien Got it, yeah I kind of paid cursory attention from 1999 to maybe 2014 or so, but got more interested again around the time of the Yes movement, the Shield, the New Day, the last years of Punk, AJ Lee/Daniel Brian stuff, etc., and the start of the women having a bigger and better role.

So I think peak Edge fell in that off-time for me.

Khan seems to have been broken by the one-time "Tuesday Night War" this week, which baffles me - TV shows always struggle when on a different night, so if I was him I probably would have treated this week as a minor episode of Dynamite, the way WWE does when Smackdown is on FS1. Especially after WWE decided to flex its star power by adding in some legends to NXT, just let it go and move on.

But he seemed to try to double-down, doing title changes and big matches, so while they had a good night for a one-time time slot, NXT did better - which I think says nothing about either promotion. Anyway, that he has now been tweeting that this was the worst ratings for an Undertaker or Cena appearance, after essentially calling HHH and HBK bald assholes, is just strange to me. 

I think WWE needs to revamp the title scene some. If you want to have a super-long run for Reigns, I am fine with that even though I think losing and coming back more vicious to win it back would have been a good story beat, but logically that should mean that other wrestlers are either desperate to be the one to topple him, or they have resigned themselves to the other titles as he is unbeatable. So also having Gunther and now Seth with long runs is getting stale, because if both Roman and Gunther can't be beaten, why isn't Gunther going after Roman? Same with Seth? And if guys like Drew and Bobby and AJ and Balor and Shaemus lose to all three in the span of a year or so, at some point it makes them seem like the B-team - I think you always need one or two titles that move around the roster a bit more often. 

@fac I think AEW puts out the best wrestling product, week to week, show to show, that I've seen in a very long time. Buuuuuut.... WWE is still bigger. It will almost certainly remain so for the foreseeable future. Khan getting upset by being beat in the ratings just doesn't make sense and makes him come off like an entitled child, or just makes him seem really out of touch.

I'll also throw in another shot against AEW by saying kind've what you're saying about WWE, which I agree with, is true of AEW in a broader sense; neither company is doing a good job, at all, of explaining the title scene and whatever internal 'ranking' system they're using. Hell, AEW has an actual ranking system they mostly just ignore now. I'm a guy that doesn't like a company to have too many titles. But if you are going to have a lot of upper tier talent and not a lot of titles, you really NEED excellent storylines to 'occupy' your talent and explain why they're not just running after titles all the time. Neither company is doing well at this, really. Nor are they doing well at explaining why some people get title matches and some don't.

For WWE specifically... the right time to have Roman drop the belt was a few months ago. They've overplayed their hand at this and now it's problematic. Pretty soon I think we're going to see the fans really get fed up. After all, despite how much people like Brock, lots of fans were really resistant to Brock as champion because of his part time schedule. Fans want a present, defending champion on TV. Even though Roman defended less often than maybe he should have, at least he used to always be around. Having him be an absent champion is, in my opinion, a huge mistake.

@theknightdamien Yeah, if they knew Roman was going to be AWOL for two months, I don't understand why you don't have Jey take it from him - even you want to put it back on Roman in 3 months. Would have been compelling if you had Paul not sure if he should toady up to Jey or wait for Roman to come back, Jimmy unhappy he is second fiddle, Solo not sure what to do...and then Roman comes back and re-establishes himself, and maybe goes lone wolf and is pissed at everyone. 

I think WWE never really was good at having title opportunity logic, they even shined a light on it this past week with Drew coming out to face Seth and Seth being confused about someone just saying he is next, let's fight for it with no shenanigans. If anyone really tried to understand how WWE is run, from a kayfabe side of things, it makes no sense at all, like they are scheduled for a three-hour show but if not for someone jumping someone else in the first 30 minutes there was no main event planned...every week.

But as you noted there was going to be some order in AEW for that, which I thought was a nice idea and to me had a lot of booking potential with stables trying to manipulate the standings - sort of what MJF did with having to go through the lackeys to get to him for instance, you could actually make a case for that being a strategy to hang some losses on someone who he doesn't want to face, and it backfiring in them getting the wins needed to move up the rankings. The irony to me is that a ranking system actually gives you reason to have different matchups, like face vs face, or gives you an out for why two people are not battling, or let's you bring in these outside guys for a few matches.

If Tony hasn't figured out that as long as WWE is aiming for the mainstream PG audience and can bring in guys with name recognition outside wrestling like the Rock and Cena talking about Make-A-Wish, that AEW isn't going to surpass that in total popularity when they have guys sticking skewers in their heads and dropping f-bombs in promos and making scissor me Daddy Ass jokes. I think there is room for both, but one almost by default has a ceiling. 

@fac We are in agreement about Roman. His run was amazing, but having him not be there is a real fizzle-out moment for his otherwise great run as champion and this was just.. not the right choice to make and I'm not sure why they made it unless it was literally just to appease Roman so he doesn't run off.

One thing I'll say in defense of the Scissor Me Daddy Ass stuff is that THAT'S the kind of stuff WWE/WCW was doing at the absolute height of their popularity and staying power. That was the Attitude Era that so many people claim is the ultimate expression of pro wrestling mainstream appeal. So I do get why a total mark like Tony would push into that direction and believe that it will eclipse the current PG-era product found elsewhere.
And I don't think it necessarily puts a hard cap on how popular AEW can become. The more important elements here are that AEW focuses a lot more on actual wrestling - which is perhaps less popular than just 'the spectacle' that WWE provides for, and AEW is WAY newer and just does not have the built-in 'I watch because I've always watched' fanbase.
There are WWE fans that only watch WWE. For no reason. That's just.. what they watch. They don't dislike AEW, and in many cases have never even seen it even if they are aware of it. It's going to take a very long time for AEW to overcome being 'the new kid' to WWE's ridiculously long tenure as the ONLY real wrestling promotion on TV.

I admit to being one of those follows WWE at times as much out of inertia as being a hardcore wrestling fan - I'll watch AEW here and there but if I miss it, I miss it, while I might try to find a Raw or Smackdown replay if I missed it live. (Last night watched Collision and enjoyed it, but the was the first time in a few weeks.)

I think that when WWE did the Attitude Era or ECW pushed "hardcore" matches or anytime Wrestling went more to the extremes is that I do think that style has a shelf life. While it does draw eyes, it naturally feeds into a ratcheting up/be more extreme/top yourself problem I think - at some point you can't get more extreme, and the people there for the extreme stuff get bored and move on as it gets "boring". That "let's push the envelope more" is how you go from chair shots and table spots to barb-wire ring ropes and light tubes and spikes, or revealing ring gear to bikini competitions with glued on coverings to Playboy shoots - some of the stuff that, at least to me, became too much a focus or end-to-itself than a side part (sometimes crazy stunts, sometimes eye-candy) of the whole wrestling world. At some point you cross over from being edgy to being exploitive, from being stiff to being dangerous, from maybe a little color once in a while to crimson masks every show.  I always wonder how much pressure some acts feel to push the envelope in a way that isn't what they want, so having the PG limit is better for the performers. I think the edginess at some point starts to constrict your audience if parents can't bring their kids...or let them watch the show. 

I actually think AEW is still somewhat Attitude Era light, but I do think at times they add in stuff because they have the latitude to do so, rather than they need it, so it seems gratuitous to me.

So as much as I find Moxley annoying, his proposal to have an independent doctor and pro-wrestler watching the matches just for concussion signs, sort of like the NFL, makes a lot of sense. 

He described being out of it for a decent portion of the match he was concussed, and what he described was something I have felt was a major issue - concussed people can sometime be on cruise control, so if the ref was asking if he was OK, or grabbing his hand to see if he squeezed it, both of those might get a negative response for a pain based injury, but potentially not for a concussion even if warranted. I always think of the Rock vs Mankind match with the chairshots to the head, if Foley was instantly concussed and unable to process that he needed to say "I Quit", as I suspect, that it then resulted in the Rock and the ref not adjusting and protecting Foley.

So good on him for suggesting it. Now if only he would stop doing spots with sharp objects that could also go badly awry, I would be happier. 

Injuries are hard in wrestling, cause some of them are such good actors that you can't always tell. Both ways too. Sometimes it looks really good like they actually got fucked up, but they're totally fine. Or there's the other way where like with Bryan, where he was hurt really bad, and he hid it so well no one knew. And some of them are so well trained, that their body can go on cruise control when something happens, especially when it becomes like second nature. I know I can phase out sometimes playing xbox if I'm doing something I've done a ton of times, and just put my body on automatic and keep going while my mind drifts off or I listen to music or something. 

Two things - 

I generally like the WWE storylines at the moment, but I think the Judgement Day storyline is getting a bit like the Bloodline, it needs to have a shake-up soon, as does pulling the trigger on kicking Bailey out of Damage Control, and Gunther needs to move up to face Rollins or Roman. I am starting to wonder if HHH has an issue pulling the trigger on changes at the top level. It seems like the long-term title runs are starting to undermine each other by not having one of them being so long feel unique, given that if you have three top guys in Roman, Rollins and Gunther - why not face each other, what does it say about the rest of the roster? I think HHH likes strong heels a little too much.

The Swerve vs Hangman match was the sort of thing that makes me feel uncomfortable that I am a wrestling fan. Apart from the fact it is absurd to have me think that you can piledrive a guy onto a barb-wire wrapped steel chair and not kill them (let alone have them get up and hit their own offense) or many of the spots in that match that was essentially attempted murder, but watching people actually staple themselves, bleed profusely, and drink your opponent's blood is just not entertaining to me. (Meanwhile, in contrast to that, they have Super-MJF supposedly trying to be stopped by the management because his knee was hurt and he wasn't cleared...none of those officials seemed concerned that people were bashing cinder blocks on people...) I know I can overthink any wrestling show but that veered too much to a garbage death match for me.

While I was surprised at some of what happend during that death match, I understood it. And I enjoyed most of it. Hangman and the blood thing was too far. But that match basically cemented Swerve as a legit threat to anyone's belt. He should skyrocket now. Mayhaps be the next one to take on MJF after Joe. May even be the guy to take it from him. The MJF and Jay match was...not bad. But it wasn't a banger. That ladder match stole the show for me. It was fantastic. I almost thought it could be a coming out party for Dralistico, but that didn't happen sadly.

Looks like I'll have to start checking out WWE again. I'm just not sure I wanna spend 10+ hours a week of my life watching wrestling. I may skip the bits I don't care about and just see what Punk has to say and do. If it's interesting I'll stick with it. We shall see. But Roman still being champ is a spit in the face to everyone on the roster. And just about everyone I liked on there went to AEW already lol.

Punk is not someone I am too invested with, but I am curious how it plays out - especially as I viewed his first promo as potentially being purposely insincere, laying the groundwork for his character to lean into the "selfishness" commentary about him. Will be interesting if he plays heel vs Rollins. Or if he appears to be the face in that he makes some good points, but isn't really right, sort of how Drew was being presented and is now going more and more heelish... I also wanted AEW to lean into Punk being a bad influence on the younger wrestlers, like he took them under his wing, they loved it, but his advice was self-serving and terrible, and he was secretly a hypocrite on his anti-establishment stuff...so that may be me reading what I want to read into it. But one thing that I think has been good about WWE recently has been leaning into the fans knowledge just enough to keep kayfabe kind of alive in terms of what is real or not, like Seth and Drew after Punk's appearance. 

I kind of doubt folks are upset with Roman in the company, given it is in its best place in years business-wise, him being out of the picture often lets other wrestlers and titles get top attention, and I would argue that the Bloodline saga program has made bigger stars out of former mid-card acts like Sami, Jey, KO. Do I think the story would benefit from him losing the title and then chasing for a bit to get it back? 100%, as they are now getting close to Undertaker at WrestleMania levels where beating him can't go to elevate someone who isn't already elevated (maybe Gunther - Cody is over no matter what).