Pro-wrestling Discussion

Sounds like All Out was a great show, I sometimes wonder if going in with less expectations makes people just sit back and enjoy what happens and not focus so much on what they wanting to see. Like the idea of MJF vs Samoa Joe, fun call-back to MJF's interaction with Joe in NXT. I also like the idea of dragging out MJF and Cole. Hope Miro can get back together with his hot and flexible wife, before she heads back to Bobby Lashley. 

If you didn't watch Raw, I highly recommend finding the segment where Miz trolled the crowd and brought out John Cena for an interview. I admit to being a big fan of the Miz when he is more trolling than goofy, and when he brings out the angry side. Loved his LA Knight impersonation as well for the pure troll of it. 

Also on RAW, two things have been setup I think - one, someone needs to be traded for Jey Uso who is a legit singles star now, and I assume it will be Cody to get him back to do a longer build with Reigns; two, I wonder if the new Senor Money In The Bank briefcase will not have the contract in it, and at some point Priest will "cash in" on a beaten down Rollins, think he has won, and then Finn will cash in for real on Rollins with the contract that was never in the new briefcase, as Finn believes Priest screwed him.

Also, Payback was a fun show, I liked the Trish v Becky cage match and the Street Fight, but most of the matches were pretty good and I am curious where they are going with Rollins. 

I don't really have any interest in an MJF/Joe feud because, as I've said often, I don't enjoy Samoa Joe's matches. I don't think he's that good in the ring, and I think he has one of the most boring, tedious, try-hard personas one can have in wrestling. Oh, you're entire personality is that you're.. a tough guy? Wow. Might as well stop wrestling and write some novels with all that creativity. Frankly, Joe doesn't deserve to be elevated above even other guys I have no interest in like Cena. At least Cena could be funny and goofy when it was called for.

I'm ludicrously invested in the Miro/CJ thing. Has so much potential to be the perfect combination of engaging, weird, awesome, and hilarious. Miro is incredibly under-rated. And while CJ was getting a lot better toward the end of her WWE run, I'm really not interested in seeing her trying to wrestle in AEW. So I'm totally cool with her coming in just to be a character.

Miz/Knight has been a great feud. It's cool to see Knight getting lots of love over the last.. what 6 months or something?

Payback was pretty good, for sure. Rollins/Nakamura was awesome. Lynch/Stratus was really good. Always fun to watch Ripley no matter who she's beating up. The tag match was enjoyable. Pretty damn solid show overall. I, too, am wondering where they're going by suddenly bringing up all of Rollins' back problems (that he's had for years now).

I hadn't considered that Finn's buddy was tricking Priest and had stolen the contract from him for Finn. That would be an amazing angle, to be honest. I hope they do that because it's a great idea. But I also will hate to see Judgement Day break up, mostly because of Ripley turning into the defacto leader, which I love.

And can we please stop having non-wrestlers doing things in wrestling matches. Fucking Rodman practically ruined the entire end of the match and was just embarrassing and painful to watch. Plus, he's a twat. Stop elevating these fucking people when they add zero value to the product.

Danielson has been one of my faves since he started in season 1 of NXT. He didn't have the best mic skills back then, but I almost felt like I saw his future when he was there and I was like "this dude is gonna be great." And I've liked him ever since. So if they gave him creative over Collision it'll most likely be good once he gets his stride. He always reminded me of one of my other favorite wrestlers, who's name gets buried because of his...let's call it unfortunate lapse in sanity, most likely due to too many chair shots to the head. I'm sure most people could figure it out. I have no problem saying the name, but some other people may not want to read it. But, before all the bad stuff, he was one of the best wrestlers of his time, and he was one of my faves. It's just sad what happens to people sometimes. But I mean, Hulk Hogan is a giant piece of shit irl and he's still considered one of the greats. Not sure why, he always sucked to me. But it's really not the same.

I never really was interested in Joe. I didn't really follow NXT when he was there. But when he got to AEW everyone was acting like he was the biggest thing since Stone Cold. They even strapped him with the RoH TV title almost immediately and he hasn't lost it since. I think, for a guy in his weight class, he's not bad. His persona isn't super exciting. And he's not one of the best in the world that's for sure. But there have been alot of men like him that never could do the things he can. And he definitely feels like he's a force to be reckoned with when he's in the ring. His matches were never fantastic so far though. I think his best 1 was at all in with Punk, at least that I've seen. So I'm not sure what the hype around him was.

Yuta has all the potential in the world. But he's not quite there yet. I saw that when he was with best friends. No offense to them, but him leaving that group was the best thing he did. I like best friends. Trent is fantastic, Chuck reminds me of a younger JBL. And OC is one of the best in the company. And if we're counting Statlander, I would do things to that woman that we would both regret later. That's my girl. But they're not top tier material. They're all B+ players, and Yuta can be an A when he wants to be. He'll get there eventually.

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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I, too, am wondering where they're going by suddenly bringing up all of Rollins' back problems (that he's had for years now).

I have to believe they are either trying to pull back from the cockiness to ground his character or they are planting the seeds for him to drop the belt whole protecting him, and possibly laying the groundwork for him and Roman to square off as the working champ and the protected champ? Hard to say. 

But I also will hate to see Judgement Day break up, mostly because of Ripley turning into the defacto leader, which I love.

I suspect they believe that Priest could be a solid face at the top of the card, and having him get screwed is an instant face turn for him. They also have the problem with Rhea that she is too popular, if not for Dom they would not be able to even try to position her as a heel anymore. They are close to becoming the "cool" heels, and I think if they spun off Finn and JD then Judgement Day of Priest, Rhea and Dom and someone else could start to be a good tweener group.

And can we please stop having non-wrestlers doing things in wrestling matches.

I used to agree with that, but Logan Paul and Bad Bunny have been pretty impressive in their matches. But they have been training and aren't 50+ years old.

@fac I should say that when I'm talking about non-wrestlers doing things in wrestling matches, I'm more specifically talking about this Rodman type of absolute trash. No sense of timing. No idea how to do something. Doesn't even know where the camera is. Just kind of does a thing and then stands around when he clearly wasn't supposed to. For totally different and understandable reasons, sort've, we got the same kind of thing with Snoop in WWE not that long ago.

Logan Paul and Bad Bunny are a different beast. I do not want them anywhere near my wrestling. BUT... they're active participants in a wrestling match and are actively doing things to better understand what they're supposed to be doing and how to do it. Those are guys taking on the role of an actual wrestler, even if on a limited basis. I still hate it. Very much. And Logan Paul is a cunt. BUT at least those guys took it seriously enough to put in a little effort rather than that doofy loser Rodman standing around staring and clearly not knowing what he's supposed to do.

To be clear, I agree and always hated when WWF/WWE would drag in celebrities to hit someone and have the pro flop around like they had been killed, and still hate it.

I was therefore very surprised with both Bad Bunny and Paul - I dislike Paul as well but he is a legit athlete as well as being a self-promoter, so his interest makes sense - it was BB that still surprises me, he clearly must be a fan to get that involved as he doesn't need the WWE at all.

Most of the Celeb colabs are garbage. WWE used to do them every week for a couple years there. They'd have a new Star come in on Raw and do something dumb. Aew has had a few which also weren't as good. But apparently some people like it so they keep on doing it.

I know some people are saying it 'elevates' the title. But I think putting the strap on Moxley was the worst decision AEW could have made. That guy is ruining wrestling. More importantly, I don't believe he actually elevates the title. I think most people recognize this for what it is; Mox is popular and he probably wants to be champ so they had to give him something. It's a title that's too 'small' for a former AEW Champion, but also manages to make that title not seem any more important than it already did. Orange made that title. And it should remain the worker's championship, not end up as a secondary championship consolation prize when there's not enough room for all the big guys to compete for the main title.

Right now I have two major problems with AEW that I desperately want to see them rectify immediately:

Where did the ranking system go? It seems like there's just totally random title matches all the time now. Often we're seeing challengers that have terrible records, or almost no record. Why? You telling me that someone like AR Fox was, according to actual wins and losses, the MOST deserving guy back there of a title shot? It's frustrating. The rankings used to mean something and I felt like that was a big thing that made AEW's various titles mean more than WWE's.

The women's division is a fucking mess. Barely any singles matches. ONE women's match per FOUR FUCKING HOUR PPV event. Basically zero actual storylines/feuds. There's nothing to sink your teeth into. And AEW has a phenomenal women's roster. It's borderline criminal that they're getting treated this way.
I'm not a huge fan of Toni, but I gotta admit that this new crazed starlet persona is fucking AMAZING and I love it so much. She's doing a great job with it and it's probably one of the best things to happen to the women's division since Statlander returned.

As for WWE.. I only have one thought about them right now; bringing back Nia Jax is a disgusting, disgraceful insult to the entire business. And the FIRST thing she does is two moves that look like they legit did or could easily have injured the other women. She has remained -unapologetic- about injuring several women. She laughs and smiles about it. She does not give a shit. She doesn't seem like just a bad wrestler, but legitimately a terrible person. I refuse to even watch WWE as long as she's there. Flat out.

I don't think the win/loss ever really mattered for the smaller belts. They were both kind of open challenge. It only really came into play with tag belts and the main belt. And sometimes they still reference win/loss like they did with the Acclaimed a few times before they won the trios.

And as for Mox, I don't actually think he wants to be a Champ all the time. That's usually Kahns decision. For whatever reason he decided Mox should have it. I don't think Mox needs it. It would've been much better for Yuta to win it. It would've made the same impact for that feud, and it would've elevated Yuta.

I do like their women's division, but it does seem to be floundering a bit. Last I heard Kenny was in charge of it, but it doesn't seem like he's been doing shit with it. I think they should let Saraya and the girls run it themselves. And then just run everything by Tony. Also, while they do have some really good female wrestlers, the ones we see are about the only ones that are. Tay is preggo so she's out. Hayter is legit hurt. Anna is mediocre at best. Jade may jump ship, and while I like her look and her cosplay game, she's not very good. So they have a bunch of chicks on dark and RoH. And then like, maybe 6 or 7 on the main roster worth giving spotlight too. When you put them all basically in the same match somehow, they don't have anyone else to use lol.

@trunks3540  I think win/loss did matter with all the belts. What you're talking about is a separate issue that I don't like; the reliance on 'open challenges' whenever creative just doesn't have any good ideas. No idea for a feud? Not sure what you want to do with this person besides just.. have them be champion? OPEN CHALLENGES! It's lazy.
But whenever we got matches that weren't specifically part of open challenge laziness, they did reference win/losses and did not give title matches to people with like 0/3 records (again, except as part of the open challenges). I should clarify that I'm not against the open challenge stuff, I just think it's WAY over-used as an excuse to not bother writing any storylines.

To your point, they do still reference win/loss records -sometimes-. They can't even decide when it matters. It all feels very thrown together, like there's no actual rules. For me part of the fun is watching how these characters interact with all those rules. How do you get a new title match when the rules say a loss puts you at the back of the line, for example? Can you trick the champ into -demanding- a match with you, even though they already beat you? Stuff like that is interesting and fun. Having the rules, including win/loss records, only matter when you remember those rules exist kind of sucks and makes having those rules at all pointless.

Totally agree about Yuta. That would have been a great direction to go. But Yuta is another unfortunate victim of Khan pushing someone and then forgetting they exist/turning them into a jobber. It's straight up embarrassing and heartbreaking that Yuta is just the guy now designated to do the favors whenever BCC needs to lose a match.

AEW definitely seems to need at least a couple of women in creative to get better representation out there as a matter of course. Too many boys in the back deciding only the boys' matches matter. I disagree that we're already seeing most of the talented women, though. AEW has a lot of talented women. You just don't get to see them enough to care about them. Even good wrestlers can be boring if you don't care about them. Look at Yuta. He hasn't drastically improved -as a wrestler- from before the BCC days, but that feud with and ultimately joining the BCC made you care about his character and therefore appreciate him more as a wrestler. The women need the same thing. They need stories. And there are basically none right now for them. There's barely even any actual rivalries anymore.

Some random odds and ends - 

If Dolph Ziggler really has wrestled his last WWE match I will be disappointed - he deserved a true final feud and retirement match. You have guys like Theory or Waller or even Dom that could go over him and get heat for ending his career. I hope he was at approached about going out in a storyline and not just dumped - maybe he was approached and declined.

I hope Mustafa Ali ends up somewhere and gets to shine.

I find the extremely angry fan reactions to WWE cuts kind of fascinating, as I wonder if they get as upset when a supporting character gets killed off on a TV show, or the 4th WR gets cut from the team. In both acting and sports there is always turnover.

In AEW land, not sure if they needed to put the title on Christian - I thought there was still mileage in him acting like the champ but not being the champ. 

Bloodline has a lost a bit of momentum I feel. If they knew Roman was going to be away for a while like this, not sure why you don't let Jey win the title from him, only to be ostracized by the family or get too cocky, and then have Roman return with a vengeance. I really don't think the consecutive days thing for champs is a benefit after a while - Roman could still be champ for a total of 4 1/2 out of 5 years with maybe one or two loses in there and still be dominant. The GOATs in every sport take a few loses, and then come back even better, or have the last hurrah run - its actually a better story.

Dolph may go to AEW where his brother jobs out every so often. He may be a good fit there, but I don't think he'll be in the main event scene for a while if he does. I only say that cause, again, his brother is there. And alot of the better wrestlers like him end up catching Tony's eye and getting at least an invite to go look and see what's up.

Before WrestleDream I was going to complain about TV titles being defended on PPV, let alone main-eventing, but then figured Edge might show up. And he did. Not a needle-mover for me, but happy he is happy to work with Christian again (who is great as the despicable heel at this point).

I feel like they are diminishing MJF's title reign, and in some ways the importance of the title itself. It's one thing for Roman to be gone so the title isn't defended, it's another when the champ is instead wrestling single-handed against a tag-team for a second-tier tag-team belt, and winning, which elevates no one.

Honestly.. no matter what else happened I was going to walk away from WrestleDream fucking BEAMING because Adam Goddamn Copeland is All Elite.
That is so incredibly exciting to me, and something I never thought was ever going to happen as Edge felt like an Undertaker-style lifer.

I can't wait for everything that comes next.

I don't mind MJF not defending his title because, rather than diminishing that title, I think it elevates the storyline of how important his friendship is, and really sells that story. And AEW is doing a trash job right now at having actual storylines, so being really committed to this one is a good thing, in my book.
On the other hand.. I think it was a mistake to do this handicap tag match. Those Righteous dudes deserved better than to get absolutely schooled like that. It's straight up an embarrassment to be a legit tag team getting beaten by one guy, and I'm calling it right now that their AEW career never recovers from that. It was an undeserved burial just for the sake of not cancelling a match that didn't even need to be on this show, given how stacked the card was.

Julia was bound to lose and I'm bummed about that. Also the match was obviously crafted to make Statlander, who I absolutely love, look like a beast. Unfortunately, that also had the effect, especially for the first half of the match, of making Julia look weak. Also, I want to take this opportunity to bitch endlessly about AEW letting their wrestlers trash talk gimmicks. So far every person that's feuded with the HOB has basically made fun of their shtick, including Statlander. Imagine if everyone had made fun of Undertaker. How do you get that gimmick over when ALL the wrestlers outright tell the audience that even they don't take it seriously. Pisses me off. Do better, Tony.

Bryan's match was incredible. Loved every minute of it. Really, the whole card was quite good except for Kingston. Kingston fucking sucks. He and Moxley could both disappear today and wrestling would be better for it.

I do hope Dolph also comes to AEW but, of course, that roster is so damn stacked at this point that Tony is going to have to start making hard choices about whether or not he really needs more upper level talent, because at some point you're not even building new stars. That being said, turning up Ziggler for your promotion would make you an idiot because he's amazing and easily the MOST under-rated wrestler ever to work for WWE.

I also think he'd do pretty well in AEW. Again, the big problem is their roster is so big that a lot of great wrestlers (like Jay White) that absolutely deserve to be carrying gold aren't, because there's not enough titles or TV time to go around.

I've seen The Righteous labelled the Wish version of The House of Black and The Wyatt Family and I can see it from what I've seen of their look alone.

If Copeland wanted to wrestle more, and WWE wasn't interested, I'm happy for him to get this chance to work with all these new guys, and one (maybe 2) matches with Christian (as opponents and maybe as a team one last time).