Pro-wrestling Discussion

Pretty eventful SummerSlam, enjoyable show and matches, and everything mattered. Can't remember the last time four titles changes hands on one show. Most of the story beats were predictable - but in many ways good story beats should be predictable when the groundwork has been laid and things progress in terms of the logic and motivations of the characters.

Finn, Liv and Dom led Judgement Day I hope lasts awhile as a truly despicable set of heels. Fans have wanted to cheer Rhea for a long time, and Priest as more of a tweener works, kind of like Randy Orton.

Gunther and Bron and Nia make for believable heel champs that will be tough for the good guys to beat given their size and attitudes, which is always a good dynamic. I figure Liv loses the belt back to Rhea fairly soon, as I think Hunter likes having his championships more or less balanced between heels and faces, so he won't want both Women's Titles to be on heel for too long. 

I also liked that Punk fell victim to the same thing Drew did, he got distracted, but I did feel they missed a bit of a chance for Rollins to let them go over the line a bit more with some weapons and what not, only to start to try to reel it in when it was too much - like maybe he lets Drew give a couple of chair shots, but then someone gets a bat or a sledgehammer, or whatever. There may have been a bit too much storytelling for a feud where they came in talking about murdering each other in the match, match may not have been visceral enough. 

I liked Roman's return in the moment but honestly, Roman interfering in a way that helped Cody bugged me a bit as Roman could have come out at any time to put Solo in his place. I feel that they should have had his return come when someone like Jey or Jimmy was fighting Solo and they were getting killed - Roman coming back at that point to protect Jey or Jimmy and avenge Heyman against Solo et al I think would have meant more. Unless they play it that Roman came back to stop Solo from winning against Cody because he is just that petty to not allow Solo to do what he couldn't. Which is a bit more nuanced and doesn't totally redeem Roman.

I'm still watching, but I haven't really had enough time to sit down and collect all my wrestling-related thoughts lately. I think, though, it should suffice to say that nothing lately has happened that made me think 'I gotta go talk about this.'  I just haven't cared.

I don't know if it's a bit of a general wrestling burnout (I'm sometimes two or three episodes of Dynamite behind at this point, and I basically only watch or read about the highlights from WWE programming). Everything, from both companies, is once again starting to feel very predictable and stale. AEW doesn't seem to know what to do with their better talents -- when they're not on the injured list, that is. WWE also seems to be struggling a bit to keep the longer-form storytelling interesting. By the time they got around to the betrayal of Rhea and Bi-Taker, I just didn't care anymore because we've seen it coming for basically months at this point?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm struggling to really find particular fault with anything going on. I just.. don't really care at the moment. So maybe burnout is indeed the issue.

I've been watching but haven't been jonesing for it recently. AEW is still doing really good matches. But both shows are fairly predictable when it comes to stories. The big thing I am interested in though is how Bryan is gonna go out, hopefully as champ. As one of my fave wrestlers, definitely top 5, its gonna be sad to see him stop, but I hope he goes out on top.

I seem to go a few years on, a few years off with wrestling - might be the week-in, week-out nature of it gets a little repetitive even when done well. While I am enjoying the WWE product they are taking a bit too long for some things to get to where it seems pretty clear it is going. So I share the malaise a bit.

While I get where they are going with the Bloodline - Roman gets to taste what it was like to never have a fair shot due to the final boss using goons and henchman to skew the odds - the current Bloodline doesn't have the interesting dynamics behind it that Roman had as he kept the Usos and Heyman and Sami in line - the current Bloodline is much more typical heel stable, so it doesn't seem as fresh. A storyline where Roman "repents" and gets the band back together, re-earning the trust the Usos and Sami, might be good. (Even better if they fall behind him, help him out, and once he is back on top, he reverts to being a manipulative mafia boss and they regret they helped him).

Danielson talking about needing neck surgery after he stops wrestling might be work, at least I hope it is, but as I've said before, I dislike it as a work as I don't really want to wonder if he might truly be causing lasting damage, and if it is a shoot then why is he wresting at all? We all know it is a worked storyline with real risk for the performers at times, and I a lobe when they blur real, rumored and worked antagonism into stories, but not real injuries - not when someone like Big E is unable to perform and lucky to be walking due to neck stuff. 

Tony seems to be overloading the All In card again, and things like FTR vs the Acclaimed going to a draw so they both get a title shot undercuts the stakes in matches. Not like Christian doing the crooked ref thing in hoping that neither team qualified for the Trios title, which was fun and of course would backfire.

So, not feeling having Cody dealing with the Bloodline and getting entangled with Roman. I thought they had enough there with all the former Bloodline family members - Jimmy, Jey, the Rock, even Sami - plus Solo's crew - that I don't think we need Cody muddying things. Felt it is hurting the story of Roman being down and out, or at least less "in charge", when he shows up with 7 SUVs to talk to Cody. 

Also not feeling Mox somehow getting a chance to face, and maybe retire, Danielson. I can only assume Danielson is nearly done because otherwise you don't shoehorn the Nigel match in so oddly. 

Danielson is almost certainly going to be done very soon. Every rumour without fail is that he's way more banged up than he's been letting on and it won't be much longer before the doctors won't even clear him to compete anymore. He needs like two different surgeries or something.

That being said, Mox going over Bryan is literally the worst decision AEW could ever make as a company.
It doesn't serve a storyline cap, because no one wants the 'bad guy' to win and retire the 'good guy.' Plus, it's a storyline that was JUST introduced, so it doesn't even feel like a proper payoff.
Mox doesn't -need- it because he's already as popular as he's ever going to get. It's a Lesnar beats Undertaker situation all over again where one of the few guys in the entire company that basically cannot benefit from it is potentially going to be given this spot. Ridiculous.
Also, on a personal note, Mox is still just fucking terrible in every way. His promos suck. His ideas suck. His wrestling sucks. Can't think of too many people in AEW I'd be more upset to see retire Bryan and become champ.

SMART booking would have Garcia go over and lock him into a long term contract. There's history between the two. It cements his formerly-temporary nickname of The Dragon Slayer. It serves as a massive boost to a rising star that can actually benefit from something like this. I don't even particularly like Garcia myself, but this is the only booking that actually makes sense.

Posted by: @theknightdamien

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That being said, Mox going over Bryan is literally the worst decision AEW could ever make as a company.

Danielson vs Mox with Christian holding the knockoff Money in the Bank and lurking would barely have been that interesting 10 years ago in WWE.

The whole storyline did nothing for Darby to offer up his spot via a match with Mox and lose, nor did it do anything for Strickland to lose to Danielson just to go back to Hangman. 

I thought there could be a lot of drama if Danielson came out and said, "next match I lose is my last match", and then you have reason for someone like Nigel try for his shot, and then a few more with a mix of heels and faces, before a face young gun takes him out. If each opponent was a threat to either get major heel heat or get the passing of the torch rub, even jaded fans might wonder if this was going to be it.

We'll see - I am thinking my WWE days may be winding down as I want to drop streaming services like Peacock, let alone add one more in Netflix. Wrestling is something I will pay a little for, but not $300 a year between Peacock and Netflix, plus the cost of cable.

@fac I don't think I'd watch wrestling at all anymore if I paid for it......

I still think they have a good chance to make the Danielson retiring when he loses the title thing really interesting and meaningful. The problem is they're not making good booking decisions. And yeah, maybe this is partly about who Danielson wants to fight rather than 'smart booking' but like.... eh. Mox shouldn't be anywhere near this. And if they actually let him be the one to retire Danielson, that will be, and I don't use this word lightly, disgusting.

The whole Strickland thing is definitely bizarre. But I guess that's just him being a victim of Danielson suddenly being in a position where he needs to retire soon and Khan/the fans not really wanting to see Bryan retire without ever being champion. He deserves it. I'd like to see Strickland gain the championship again one day, but not until that fucking absolutely worthless dipshit Nana goes away. That guy just ruins every moment that he's on camera.

@theknightdamien I felt the $10 a month for the WWE network and then Peacock to get the PPVs and tape library and some new stuff was worth it, when the main shows were on broadcast or basic cable. But that's about my limit - I have to think many folks are getting tired of needing multiple pay streaming services to watch stuff (like the NFL, where you need broadcast + ESPN + Peacock + Amazon + NFL Network potentially to follow your favorite team all season). 

I also suspect it is about who Danielson wants to fight, but I also suspect they have moved up the timeline for BD to take a break from being full time, and WrestleDream in Tacoma will be the last we see of him for quite a while. I assume he beats Moxley, but then gets left for dead by the BCC for Christian to cash in, so he has an out that he never really lost a "retirement" match. I am sure I am the minority for this, but I wish he and Miz would have a final feud and they somehow retire each other. 

@fac  The problem in Canada is that basically no wrestling is available for free. Even all the WWE stuff is specifically carried on a sports channel that you need to add to your cable package. So you've gotta have like a 25-30 dollar cable package, plus at least the small sports package (I think another 10-15 dollars last I knew) just to watch RAW and Smackdown.
And I honestly don't even know where you find AEW content on Canadian TV. I THINK it's on the same channel. But still.. no thanks. I'm not getting an entire cable package plus a sports package just to watch wrestling.

The timeline for Danielson almost definitely moved. I think the biggest victim of that is actually Swerve, because I don't think Danielson was even slated to have a title run this soon originally. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe the original plan was for him to win the title and then immediately retire.

I also think Christian having the not-MITB right now puts a difficult spin on this situation that AEW hadn't originally planned for and now they're kind of stuck with. There is basically no way that a guy that is probably himself a few years away from retirement and probably also as popular as he's ever going to get is going to be the one to retire Bryan. But you're stuck with him hovering over the title picture right now.

I really think the best way to handle this is to have Garcia go over Bryan in an absolute war of a technical match, let Bryan have his moment with the fans and leave it be. Then have the Patriarchy jump a beaten-up Garcia on Dynamite and get Christian to cash in on him then. It preserves the sort-of sanctity of a retirement moment instead of making that all about Christian, and it sets up a feud between Garcia and the Patriarchy.
Potentially you even set up for a much later cool moment where Bryan can come back for a one-off match where he teams with Garcia (due to that level of respect if Garcia goes over Bryan as a face-on-face match) against the Patriarchy at some point in the future.

You can still plant lots of seeds with all this. But Moxley being involved in any of it basically makes no sense. Unfortunately, it also makes no sense to have Mox go into this with a whole new character and re-shuffling of his stable only to have him lose the first big match (or second, if you count Darby) he has. So.... ugh. Bad situation. Like I said - it's just awful booking.

WWE Bad Blood was, apart from the HitC match, kind of pedestrian. Finn vs Priest, Nia vs Bayley, Liv vs Rhea all seemed like matches that could have happened at any given Raw of Smackdown.

Not into the current Bloodline story - doesn't need Cody, needs Heyman, needs Roman to be more relentless about Solo usurping his reign. I think they missed the boat by not having Roman return to protect Jey or Paul from a beating...

I think WWE is suffering a bit from stretching things out a few beats too long. They did this with Otis turning on Gable, doing it now with Tiffy and the MitB cash-in and the Xavier Woods and Kofi issues. I think in wresting you need an initial/lower-key tease, then a bigger "is it about to happen tease", then the actual follow-through. Doing extra low-key or "is it about to happen" teases starts to drag.

Since I criticize AEW for not being safe at times, I did think that the shot Drew took with the toolbox to the head was dumb (if in fact it was planned, or if planned it was a botch and Drew couldn't get his hands up in time - either way dumb). They may have intended Drew to blade at some point but that clearly was over the top and I think legit hardway. My main concern with significant bleeding like that is that the wrestler may, like a concussion, end up unable to perform safely. Otherwise I loved that match as a tough fight that felt tough and didn't resort to truly crazy stunts. 

Wondering if Goldberg distracts Gunther during the match vs Sami, giving Sami the win (so he can wrestle in Saudi as a champ) and also leading to Gunther retiring Goldberg as also in Saudi.

Bad Blood wasn't great. I will never accept Nia as a champion, or even as a wrestler. She is absolutely terrible, made jokes about how she legitimately hurt too many of the women she wrestled, and is just a complete nepo-hire that does not deserve to be where she is. She literally only got her job back when Rocky basically became a board member. It's fucking gross and she can fuck off into space.

On a similar note, seeing Goldberg turn up for any reason immediately makes me want to just turn off the TV. Why is this guy still anywhere near pro-wrestling? He sucks. Legitimately just isn't a good wrestler, isn't charismatic. Why are we pushing this washed up loser on a whole new generation? Just let him go. He was never good. I want WWE to acknowledge he was never good, move on, and forget about him. Not inject him into modern content to ruin that too.
Or put Goldberg in a match against Nia and maybe they can concuss each other so bad they both go away forever.

The very idea of the shark cage match is just like.. kinda fucking stupid? Liv/Rhea can be a really good match. But making it a gimmick match hurt it rather than helped it. I actually think it had the chance to be a more PPV-quality match if it had just been a regular match.

Finn/Priest was fine. I know this is terrible because the guy is happy just being himself - but I think Finn works as a character best when he uses the Demon sometimes. Frankly, it's been way too long and I think I'm worn out on cocky Prince Devitt Finn Balor. It's stale.

Everything going on with the Bloodline seems like a huge misstep. Like the air slowly being let out of a balloon in one long, agonizing fart noise.

Drew/Punk was good, but given Punk has been so vocal about being safe and having such a problem with wrestlers doing stupid spots and hurting each other, I can't believe he'd go for this. Drew definitely look like he took the color the hard way on purpose. In my opinion. Still - I'd say it was one of the better HiaC matches. These guys gel with each other pretty well.

I'm happy Jay White is back. But, if I'm being very honest, I'd be hard-pressed right now to name any specific storylines going on with AEW. It just seems like a jumbled mess right now without much direction. That's been quite disappointing.

@theknightdamien I read that Drew was not supposed to bleed at all and the shot to the head with the toolbox was (I assume) a botch in either he didn't get his hands up or didn't know it was coming (I think from his angle with Punk on the ground, he might not have seen it - one reason wrestlers will bang chairs before swinging is to let the other know they have the chair).  It would have make sense for Drew to not bleed, as Punk could win the final match, but Drew could still troll him about Punk not fulfilling his promise to make him bleed. That spot did take away from the match for me, headshots and excessive bleeding are dangerous to the performers, and I don't like it, but it gets a bit of a pass as it was an accident and not planned. 

I think they are finally getting to the Roman rebuilds the Bloodline and mends fences story after the pointless Cody diversion, although that did lead to KO probably becoming the Drew Mac of Smackdown where he is totally right that Cody pairing with Roman was crazy, yet he will be the heel. That KO puts real world logic over wrestling logic (heightened during the Elias/Ezekial storyline), but then reverts to "I will become deranged and need to fight about it" wrestling logic is a great character beat for him. In any case, continuing to humble Roman and get the family back together seems like a decent storyline, I think the problem is that the initial rise to power and Roman becoming Michael Corleone was more interesting.

Nia seems improved to me, I did not want to see her come back but she has been better. 

Anyway, mainly wanted to point out that your boy Moxley is now AEW World Champ. Lots of folks seemed displeased but I assume this was Danielson's choice to go out effectively dead. My theory is that they can bring back Danielson to get his revenge as the William Regal of a new band of the previously unaligned AEW stars - have Allin, Cassidy, Garcia, eventually Yuta and some others - become his proteges with BD in the Obi-Wan role - and if TK was smart he'd have that group slowly be the ones to take out the older WWE transplants when the time comes. So maybe he wrestles again, but if not he becomes the mouthpiece those guys need...

I'll just add that the whole Danielson v Moxley storyline didn't need the belt, and likely would have made more sense without it - have it come from a clear beef between the two about direction while Mox was out of action. Could have kept the title on Swerve, as the defense against Perry was pointless and you could have had the Nigel match happen in way that wasn't shoehorned in between murder attempts. Danielson having a 3-month title reign seems like a footnote just to get him on the World Champ list.

KD, Oldberg was there because they were in Atlanta, and he was a Falcons player, so instant pop for fans of that team who may not know too much of his wrestling career.

I was actually able to watch the WWE PPV because I worked a day shift that day instead of my generally closing shift on Saturdays. I enjoyed the majority of it, sve for the Nia/Baley match. The finish to the Liv/Rea match killed what could have been an passable-to-okay match.