I’ve been thinking about this and I one of my biggest problems with Mattel getting the DC license back is that it just all seems pretty underhanded to me. Todd's definitely getting shafted and bulldozed by a huge corporation that has nearly unlimited funds to crush him with.
Mattel had the DC license for well over a decade and eventually ended up running it into the ground and then basically abandoned it for the most part.
Then McFarlane scoops up the DC license and he takes it and transforms DC Multiverse from a dying brand into one of the best selling action figure lines around.
Then after Todd does all the work salvaging the brand and making it into something hugely successful, oops here comes Mattel out from under a rock and they suddenly want it back (now that it’s profitable again). So they use their influence and big bank account to snatch the DC license back from McFarlane. Like some kid who threw out their toys and now wants them back after they see another kid playing with them. And that’s not even mentioning how WB screwed over Todd and threw him under the bus. Talk about gratitude and loyalty.
I know that it’s just business, and business is business and all that, but that kind of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. All I can say is that Mattel had their chance with DC and blew it, so now they think they can just step in and profit off of someone else’s hard work and success. I think WB may not realize how many fans McFarlane’s DC line has out here.
Listen... I know you are a McFarlane guy and so yours is always going to be a McFarlane biased take - but you're actually revising history here and getting facts wrong to fit your "poor Todd" victimization narrative.
Mattel didn't abandon the DC license. They were in fact surprised and disappointed when it wasn't renewed in 2019. Industry word, in fact, is that Todd didn't outbid them for the license 6 years ago - Mattel offered more but that DC thought it might be time to try a different direction. There is speculation there may have been a nudge in Todd's direction by DC Comics Publisher and Todd pal Jim Lee. There was word at the time Jim Lee was going to be doing some art for a Spawn 300 in 2019- a true rarity for Lee to work on a non-DC title...
Mattel has wanted the DC license back since they lost it - and with what I guarantee are diminishing sales returns on McFarlanes DC figure line - this time DC had to go with the money. Todd isn't getting screwed. But it's true he ultimately can't compete in a bidding war with a global conglomerate like Mattel.
So, I get you're disappointed - but Todd didn't 'get screwed over' any more than Mattel did 6 years ago. It's all just business.
Me, I'm hopeful Mattel will make DC figures I want to buy. McFarlane rarely ever did.
I didn’t say that Mattel literally abandoned the DC license, what I said was they “basically abandoned it for the most part.” Meaning they were pretty much just phoning it in near the end, and you could tell they obviously didn’t give a crap about it anymore. I actually got the sense they were about ready to scrap the whole line (much like Hasbro did with Marvel Legends a few years back). But now that DC figures are popular again and selling really well, suddenly Mattel is desperate to get the license back (because they love the DC brand so much), Yeah right.
No matter how powerful your TDS (Todd Derangement Syndrome) is, you can’t argue that he took the DC license and turned it around and made it into something much more popular and profitable than Mattel was doing (at least near the end of their tenure).
So it’s a perfectly reasonable observation to say that by all appearances McFarlane is getting screwed and steamrolled by a giant faceless, soulless conglomerate that has zero loyalty to anyone but their shareholders, and definitely not the collecting community. And Warner Bros. is stabbing him in the back as well.
But who knows, in a little over a year I may eat my words. Mattel may come out with the greatest DC action figure line ever made and blow all of our minds. But based on what they did before, and what they’re currently doing with their other figure lines, I sincerely doubt it. Most likely they’ll roll out a bunch of generic looking figures that are reasonably OK, but definitely nothing special.
McFarlane DC Multiverse is far from perfect, and there are some things I would change about the line, such as the wonky scale issues and the horrible Platinum program, but for my money it’s still best action figure line out there. They are the figures that I look the most forward to getting when new releases are announced. So, unless Mattel surprises the hell out of me and actually releases some awesome figures, they won’t be getting one red cent of my very hard earned money.
I didn’t say that Mattel literally abandoned the DC license, what I said was they “basically abandoned it for the most part.” Meaning they were pretty much just phoning it in near the end, and you could tell they obviously didn’t give a crap about it anymore. I actually got the sense they were about ready to scrap the whole line (much like Hasbro did with Marvel Legends a few years back). But now that DC figures are popular again and selling really well, suddenly Mattel is desperate to get the license back (because they love the DC brand so much), Yeah right.
No matter how powerful your TDS (Todd Derangement Syndrome) is, you can’t argue that he took the DC license and turned it around and made it into something much more popular and profitable than Mattel was doing (at least near the end of their tenure).
So it’s a perfectly reasonable observation to say that by all appearances McFarlane is getting screwed and steamrolled by a giant faceless, soulless conglomerate that has zero loyalty to anyone but their shareholders, and definitely not the collecting community. And Warner Bros. is stabbing him in the back as well.
Just to be clear here - I disagree with your assessment of how things ended with Mattel. Mattel had prototypes and mock-ups for multiple subsequent waves of their ongoing DC figure line. They had announced the Mammoth CnC wave and shown off some of the BAF Demon King Joker wave as well. They had plans to do more and were surprised their license wasn't renewed.
Their efforts at the end actually featured more new bodies and unique sculpting than people were used to with DCUC - Look at the engineering on The Ray that came with Lex Luthor Power Suit BAF - no more T-hips on him, all new torso articulation, same height and scale as DCUC but with actual articulation innovation that people claim never happened. Vixen, Spoiler, rebirth Kid Flash.... those figures showed actual innovation because Neitlich and the 4Horsemen were gone from the DC program. Sure there were some scale issues - the last Beast Boy while all new sculpt was definitely a tad tall with an enormous head. Still they were innovating in the line and ready to bring more when the license moved. They hadn't given up and they weren't phoning it in and pretending like that was the case is revising history. Just because you "got the sense" that they wanted to scrap the line doesn't make that accurate. They had multiple waves of future 6" DC figures planned and there is no indication that they intended to stop.
There are sources that say Mattel was pissed at the time when they lost the license and have been planning on how to get it back ever since. They didn't suddenly "wake up" because Todd made DC figures sellable again. They have wanted DC back all along. And sure it is very likely that Todd's sales numbers took a nosedive because of the post pandemic retreat from hobby spending, just like every other figure line. That doesn't make it less true that McFarlane is selling less DC figures today than he was 5 years ago.
I can argue about whether Todd "turned things around" and made something "far more profitable" than Mattel, but not effectively - because I don't have the numbers. But you don't have them either. It's certainly possible that the initial offerings from McFarlane toys on the DC front outsold the final waves of the DC Multiverse line Mattel was selling - I don't have the raw data to compare. It's also possible the numbers were closer than you think. It's also certain that the most recent waves of Todd's Multiverse are selling in far lower numbers than when he started.
And from DC's perspective, when you factor in all toy lines across the global market place - Mattel was almost certainly outselling Todd + Spinmaster + whoever else, and that's ultimately what was important. Mattel has a broader global reach and a much more agile verticality to offer all kinds of different products from kiddie toys to adult collectibles to board games to video games. Todd can't offer that.
And this idea you have of Todd as the lovable everyman just out to give you what you want is a weird mythology that I also don't quite understand. Todd made what Todd wanted. In fact, I was just reading an article that talked about meetings between Todd and DC where they had to essentially force him to make Wonder Woman figures at all - he didn't want to make any. Which is why the first few he made were all bizarre overdesigned armored up weirdness instead of regular Wonder Woman. It's why there is still no Black Canary figure five years into the line.
And I'm not expecting Mattel's future output to "blow my mind" - I'm not. I am hoping they will return to something closer to the 1/12 scale since that's what I like.
The most recent information suggests they may be leaning toward staying in the 1/10th space though which means I probably won't be buying much of their new output either - but hey at least maybe their legs won't all be too long.
The most recent information suggests they may be leaning toward staying in the 1/10th space though which means I probably won't be buying much of their new output either - but hey at least maybe their legs won't all be too long.
What a power out. LOL
Just to be clear here - I disagree with your assessment of how things ended with Mattel. Mattel had prototypes and mock-ups for multiple subsequent waves of their ongoing DC figure line. They had announced the Mammoth CnC wave and shown off some of the BAF Demon King Joker wave as well. They had plans to do more and were surprised their license wasn't renewed.
Their efforts at the end actually featured more new bodies and unique sculpting than people were used to with DCUC - Look at the engineering on The Ray taht came with Lex Luthor Power Suit BAF - no more T-hips on him, all new torso articulation, same height and scale as DCUC but with actual articulation innovation that people claim never happened. Vixen, Spoiler, rebirth Kid Flash.... those figures showed actual innovation because Neitlich and the 4Horsemen were gone from the DC program. Sure there were some scale issues - the last Beast Boy while all new sculpt but a tad tall with an enormous head. Still they were innovating in the line and ready to bring more when the license moved. They hadn't given up and they weren't phoning it in and pretending like that was the case is revising history. Just because you "got the sense" that they wanted to scrap the line doesn't make that accurate. They had multiple waves of future 6" DC figures planned and there is no indication that they intended to stop.
That's wonderful that they had plans to improve, and plans to turn things around, and plans to be better...plans are great! Every abusive relationship has someone in it who always has plans to be better lol And just like that abusive relationship, maybe nobody would be in the situation if that person had given a shit in the first place.
I wasn't around as a collector when DCUC was going strong (though I've picked up plenty since I started), but I was around for the last few Mattel Multiverse waves and...<shudder>...they weren't good. I purchased many terrible figures just to build a couple that were decent at best (Doomsday, Killer Croc, Lobo). It's nice to hear that they "had plans". Insert analogy about paved roads to Hell, and all that. But as far as the previous license to Mattel goes, the figures were terrible. I like to point at the Grayson Batman as the worst offender, but that's because it's low hanging fruit. All of their figures around that time were very, very poor (especially compared to the earlier DCUC). I don't think he is "revising history" as much as you are trying to make it seem he is.
I will give them credit, however, on their Dark Knight Returns figures...those were pretty good. MOTU bucks, weren't they? At any rate, their DKR line was great. Perhaps the only good thing that came out of their Multiverse line.
The irony gave me a chuckle. I acknowledge that some of the figures in those Mattel Multiverse waves weren't great. I also credit that you were careful not to say those things then segue into a defense of McFarlane since his line literally suffers from similar complaints - engineering issues, quality issues, relative scale issues.
I will tell you this... my Mattel Multiverse The Ray figure is WAY better than the McFarlane Static Shock figure I bought. What an utter waste of plastic that thing was. It made me so depressed Mattel never got to him in their Classics/Multiverse line.
This board is going to be a lot of fun until mid 2026 🤣 Maybe this is what finally sinks fwoosh and perhaps that's fitting. While I'm a Todd fan, once a huge one, and was a cheerleader in 2021-22 I don't think he got screwed. I'm more aligned with PantherCult's take. Sure, Mattel has deeper pockets, but I don't think that necessarily means money was the sole factor. WB cares about perception of their characters and cross marketing. Todd was picking low hanging fruit with figures from decades old movies and nonsensical chase comic figures with reuse that showed little care for the source material or planning.
Early on Todd was making mold after mold celebrating what DC was publishing. I loved it, fresh and exciting. But man it hasn't been that way for years. I honestly believe that was a factor. I saw a reveal of a Mattel wrestler today and think the sculpt, as well as the Vonner Batman are better than what he delivers. So the potential for greatness is there. 2008-2011 was a very popular run and could happen again. Mattel could also **** it all up. We'll see. It's worth discussing 7" scale for them b/c that's the current scale and may be easier from a manufacturing and design POV for them.
However, I think it would be really stupid to stay at 7" Doing a 6" line would bring back a lot of fans and be a big selling point. A token of good will that's inclusive of their old figures. I hope they do it. As for Todd, I think they'll do statues. I'd dig more Page Punchers and am totally gonna get roped into the new Spawn figures he showed. I wish him well and will support Spawn for sure.
I have to agree with Panther here: Mattel's Multiverse stuff was getting a lot better than late-era DCUC. It felt like they were incorporating much more new sculpting, and honestly I thought the character selection got better. They found a good balance of classic characters and up-to-date choices that fit what the books were doing at the time (although to be fair, DCUC Wave 20 did that too). I'm hoping Mattel's future lines look a lot more like that than DCUC. One of the things I never liked about DCUC was the fixation on the Bronze Age and the Super Powers nostalgia. It's a little annoying that spots in that line were taken up by figures created for another toyline, or nothing characters like Tyr just because they showed up 20 years before in a figure line.
I wish Todd's Multiverse had a wider character selection at start when they were still going nuts with the sculpts, but they were probably able to do that partly because the line was 150% Batman and Batman Accessories. And now that they're hitting a lot of corners, the thing's ending. What a weird run when it comes down to it.
Also, are we really invoking abusive relationships to talk about a toyline, come on now.
I LOVED DCUCs focus on the Bronze Age/Post Crisis look of characters. That's the look I grew up with. I think if you really look at it, that's the look that sells best. How hard has it been to get that red orange yellow green version of Hawkman that Mcfarlane put out? How hard has it been to get your hands on either version of pre New 52 Wonder Woman? Which version of Martian Manhunter was harder to get hold of? Do people prefer the light blue superman or dark blue superman?
I can argue about whether Todd "turned things around" and made something "far more profitable" than Mattel, but not effectively - because I don't have the numbers. But you don't have them either. It's certainly possible that the initial offerings from McFarlane toys on the DC front outsold the final waves of the DC Multiverse line Mattel was selling - I don't have the raw data to compare. It's also possible the numbers were closer than you think. It's also certain that the most recent waves of Todd's Multiverse are selling in far lower numbers than when he started.
100%. We can go back and forth for hours but no one knows if the license changed hands because of poor sales, Mattel winning a bidding war, or one of a million other reasons.
And from DC's perspective, when you factor in all toy lines across the global market place - Mattel was almost certainly outselling Todd + Spinmaster + whoever else, and that's ultimately what was important. Mattel has a broader global reach and a much more agile verticality to offer all kinds of different products from kiddie toys to adult collectibles to board games to video games. Todd can't offer that.
The global marketplace/broad reach point is a good one.
This is somewhat apples to oranges, but I think it's worth mentioning. My favorite football team, Liverpool, went from New Balance to Nike shirt sponsorship a few years ago. One reason for it? Nike had broader distribution. Nike said they could get the club's gear in 6,000 stores worldwide. Mattel has the same advantage over McFarlane.
And this idea you have of Todd as the lovable everyman just out to give you what you want is a weird mythology that I also don't quite understand. Todd made what Todd wanted. In fact, I was just reading an article that talked about meetings between Todd and DC where they had to essentially force him to make Wonder Woman figures at all - he didn't want to make any. Which is why the first few he made were all bizarre overdesigned armored up weirdness instead of regular Wonder Woman. It's why there is still no Black Canary figure five years into the line.
Seriously. The guy's probably been filthy rich for about as long as he's owned a toy company (31 years now).
One of the things I never liked about DCUC was the fixation on the Bronze Age and the Super Powers nostalgia. It's a little annoying that spots in that line were taken up by figures created for another toyline, or nothing characters like Tyr just because they showed up 20 years before in a figure line.
I have been saying this for a while and blame it all totally on Scott Neitlich and his ocd tendencies. Also there was absolutely no reason why DCD had to be a superpowers tribute line. Scott to this day still spends a lot of time on you tube crying that hasbro still hasn't made the correct imperial dignitary that had a 5poa action figure forty years ago, because that particular imperial dignitary was the cornerstone of many peoples childhoods apparently. Also the bare faced cheek of the man, He will make entire videos that a Luke Skywalker figure is missing a belt pouch or that different figures should have multiple heads and accessories extra. when you think of all of the crap he was responsible for back in the day.
I appreciate the shouts for The Ray. Of the DC figures I own, he is probably my favorite. Mind you, he is not perfect and I would have much preferred the Joe Quesada look for the character (I have a strong bias), but he's fun. I got him years back on BBTS for $8, and he's still available there for the same price.
My DC collection otherwise consists of DCUC Spectre, Deadman, most of the Atom Smasher wave (missing Mini Barda, Aquaman, and Flash), Multiverse Ray, SF Aquaman, the Aquaman SDCC set, and DCSH Azrael (the bias). Of those, The Ray, the SDCC Aquaman set, and Azrael stand out as the best. The only McFarlane DC I ever got was Ragman, and solely because it's the first ever figure of my #1 DC character. Past meaning something, it's just a very mediocre figure with no texture, okay paint, and an anemic cape, that just barely does the job and has no characters to really go with.
I only really remember being excited two times with overall at the time DC figure lines. DC Icons, which being a DC obsessed middle schooler and seeing those after getting my first few Marvel Legends? Insane. Obviously the line had a lot of the same issues that every other DC line has had, but the figures and accessories were amazing. The other time was near the tail end of DC Multiverse. The line had a lot of duds, but at the time they just gave me reall fun figures of classic Aquaman and his two most iconic villains. I was a huge Aquaman fan back then, having just finished reading every Aquaman appearance from first appearance to end of Bronze Age at that point and some of Justice League Detroit, right before the set was announced. I was giddy at the thought of a matching Aqualad and Mera being possible. Then the line died. Maybe some day I'll supplement that roster slightly with the DC Multiverse Qwsp and a tiny plastic octopus.
New Mattel DC has potential. All they need to do is read the room. Mind you, corporations are almost exclusively known for containing the #2 most idiotic, sorry excuses of human beings to ever exist. But I'd like to believe they can take a good first step. WWE has been amazing, and if DC can be anything like that? Please. We're at a point where almost every other new line gets an immediate response of "Wow, this gives Marvel Legends a run for its money!", even most new Hasbro lines. They should strive for that.
I LOVED DCUCs focus on the Bronze Age/Post Crisis look of characters. That's the look I grew up with. I think if you really look at it, that's the look that sells best. How hard has it been to get that red orange yellow green version of Hawkman that Mcfarlane put out? How hard has it been to get your hands on either version of pre New 52 Wonder Woman? Which version of Martian Manhunter was harder to get hold of? Do people prefer the light blue superman or dark blue superman?
Listen. None of us have access to sales numbers for this or any other DC line. So when I hear someone say, "My preferred segment of this toyline is the most popular one, based on anecdotal evidence I've collected from the stores I visit," I feel like it would be unwise to take that as evidence of anything but a bias. None of us is a compelling dataset.
And regarding the "None of us have access to sales numbers" thing, I'd imagine Todd's DC sold fine, but McFarlane isn't the size of Mattel, and WB has a revamped DC content strategy they seem to have quite a bit of faith in, judging by the push for the new Superman film. I think Panther's on the money that this was good timing for a changeover back to a company with gigantic reach. McFarlane probably made a ton of sense when the only DC films doing well were sadness prop replicas for the most podcasted adults on earth.
Also, are we really invoking abusive relationships to talk about a toyline, come on now.
"Invoking" 🤣 It was the first thing that popped into my mind when I read "they were bad, but had plans to be better." (shrug) What are you gonna do?
I guess we can just grind everything down to "its just toys" or "it's just a toyline" though, when someone says something we don't like. That's probably the easiest way to shut down discussion on the entire point and we all go home, right?
Interesting thread to follow, even if some of the back-and-forth is a little dicey (it's going to be a long year and a half...)
SDComics, I too remember fondly when you would do the SDCC photo galleries for AFI. I would always save your galleries for last, and 'savor the flavor' of that year's SDCC.
As for folks remembering that Mattel was getting 'better' towards the end, I mean I guess there were some improvements, but my lasting memory of their last wave (other than that weird Batman '89' 'homage'/Poison Ivy wave) was the horrific cape on the Dick Grayson Batman.
So better? Maybe. Actually good? Not so sure. That said, it's been 5 years, so again, I'm cautiously optimistic that their new offering will more closely resemble the best they offer in their WWE Elite & Masterverse lines.
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