Pro-Wrestling Discussion

[TFitz]

Bloodline.... This is the best Wrestling storyline ever, possibly. Damn it's been a blast to watch. Jey was the last to believe in Sami, yet Jimmy and Sami were always besties. But Jimmy strikes Sami first after his "betrayal". Jey is crushed and just walks off, a million thoughts in his mind. Every aspect done to perfection. !@#$ amazing in my eyes. Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

Bray/LA Knight - in a "Feel the Glow" match. W.T.F. Bray did look cool under black light, but that was the only good thing about it.

Biance/Bliss - Should have been another RAW match.

Women's RR. Rhea wins as she absolutely should have. She was my pick. Nothing overly crazy, but a descent match. I also called "evil Asuka" right.

Men's RR. Again, easy call on the winner for Cody. Setups for future matches between Brock/Lashley & Seth/Logan Paul. I know L.P. has his haters, but he's pretty !@#$ good in the ring for as much time as he's had in it. After Gunther beat Braun clean on Smackdown, I figured he'd be pushed hard, but damn, his RR work was superb! After Cody & Romen and their upcoming feud, I see Gunther as the next to go for the top title(s).

My biggest disappointment that maybe didn't register with most. Montez. He's always been super-skilled and recently has got jacked as well. He should be getting pushed hard, and the RR should have been a great spotlight for his talent. Instead he lasts maybe 2 minutes. W.T. everlovin' F.

[TFitz]

Just saw this! In Biance/Bliss's RAW match, they recreated Scary Movie! I'm laughing my ass off!

[fac]

Agreed on the Bloodline storyline being top tier - they are in a tough spot of how long can you stretch it. Also, props to Roman, he is perfectly playing the mob boss who you believe would beat to death his own cousins if they crossed him while telling everyone else to be loyal to him, taking the credit but never the blame. Like Brock he can come across as legit "scary" for lack of a better term.

I think it was clearly setting up Gunther to be Cody's first or second feud, assuming he wins the Heavyweight title. Gives him both Gunther and Seth as tough opponents to start out, before he goes up against the usual fodder like Corbin, Kross, Miz. It also elevates the IC title again, like they are elevating the US title. I hope they move Owens or Sami to the IC title scene.

I like the Street Profits together, so hope they keep Montez away from singles action for a while. I hope they get another big push as a team, maybe go a bit heel for awhile.

If they lean into Paul as an obnoxious heel, I'm all for it - he is definitely good at the big spots and holds his own. That spot with Ricochet was impressive.

EDIT - Wow, that Scary Movie comparison!

[TFitz]

I like the Street Profits together, so hope they keep Montez away from singles action for a while. I hope they get another big push as a team, maybe go a bit heel for awhile.

I think the Street Profits have one more title run in them and then should move on. I'd be cool with the pair of them going heel just to get rid of the frikken' Solo cups.

EDIT - Wow, that Scary Movie comparison!

I REALLY want to see the behind the scenes of them rehearsing doing all that.

[vicious7171]

My biggest disappointment that maybe didn't register with most. Montez. He's always been super-skilled and recently has got jacked as well. He should be getting pushed hard, and the RR should have been a great spotlight for his talent. Instead he lasts maybe 2 minutes. W.T. everlovin' F.

I think he was eliminated just before Edge's appearance? It's possible they sacrificed his spots to simplify the rest of the match. Still lame to bury one of your best athletes in an event where they can shine. Maybe he was hurt or something, or pissed off the wrong person backstage.

Bloodline storyline is a lot of fun. I hope they come out with a five-pack with Sami (or six and include Heyman). Or at least Sami with his honorary Uce shirt. So glad to see Jey set himself apart from the rest; I've been watching wrestling long enough to remember the Usos being new to the scene but never took them too seriously (they had some good feuds but were never the "over" team in them). Jey has been improving in the ring for years and damn if these promos aren't proving that he has the acting chops to boot. There's a little bit of "art imitates life" thing going on here that's elevating his performances, no doubt, and this long storyline of him playing second fiddle to Roman is really interesting. It smacks of HHH putting down Batista during Evolution.

Watching RR take another chair to the back from someone he trusts was hilarious. His "damn, this again?" facial expression as he winced in pain was icing on the cake. Overall just fantastic storytelling and a perfect example of the long-term storytelling that can make pro wrestling so much fun.

[KnightDamien]

Quick thoughts on AEW: Tony did a good thing with the Briscoes tribute and paying to send everyone to the funeral. Rich asshole or not, that was top shelf behaviour.
They're already ruining the House of Black again. Those guys should be dominating right now and working toward becoming Trios champs. This bullshit where Darby randomly calls out the last member he hasn't beaten just so they can job Murphy out to him for literally zero reason was bullshit. No one actually cared that there was still a member of HoB that Darby hadn't beaten. It did not affect Darby in the smallest bit. Wasn't hurting his rep or making his title reign somehow questionable or anything like that. That match's only real outcome was to further weaken HoB, who has consistently gained and then lost momentum every time they've been utilized, with shitty decisions to put them in singles matches that they lose.
And for !@#$'S SAKE, it is absolutely criminal that all Julia does now is valet for HoB. She should be heading toward the women's title picture, and yet she barely even gets to wrestle on Dark these days.

I want Osprey in AEW pretty badly. Aussie Open as well. They'd be a GREAT addition to the trios scene, and Osprey can carry some serious dream matches in singles.

The Page/Mox feud is dumb. I can't believe anyone cares about this incredibly random and sudden hatred they have for each other. Why is Mox even still around? Let him have his vacation. Please.

They gotta stop letting MJF talk so much. He does really good promo work in smaller doses. But the cracks really show when they keep putting him on for 20-30 !@#$ minutes at a time, every single week. It's the same promo all the time, the same cheap heat, the same 'this only works because AEW lets me say stuff I can't get away with elsewhere.' And I think he's -GOOD- at promos. But sometimes less is more. Jake Roberts was great at promos, but I don't remember him delivering a whole lot of 30-minute ones.


Overall, I still feel like AEW is struggling through this period where they had some ideas and then people got hurt or became whiny twats or whatever. They definitely seem to not be good at quick course correction.



For WWE... Rumble was largely a disappointment for me, and being me I definitely have some thoughts on that.

Something I've really learned to love about modern Rumbles is the veterans/legends/one-offs that pop up and we got almost none of that worth noting except what... McCool? Logan Paul if his 'return' counts? While you could absolutely make an argument that part-timers and legends only there for a quick nostalgia pop shouldn't even be there - the fact is that it's definitely become part of the experience, so its lack is felt.

I also definitely have developed a real dislike of 'come in at number 30 and win.' Everyone KNEW Cody was going to win the Rumble. Least they could have done was work him a bit and have him be like.. number 18. Nope. Pops in. Doesn't do much. Wins. Boring. Predictable. Might as well have not even done a Royal Rumble. Just cancel it and say 'we gave Cody his Wrestlemania match' and stop wasting my time.

Women's match wasn't much better but I'd say at least Rhea really feels like she deserves it. And her winning was very likely, but definitely less absolutely certain that Rhodes.

What they did to all the women's singles matches was a travesty. Cant' believe 'Give Divas a Chance' or whatever isn't trending all over again.


As a wrestling show.. it actually kind of sucked. And here's (my thoughts on) why: They're trying to do too much. I love that they've added a women's rumble to the PPV. But the show is long, and they're cutting time by just making all their matches really short and worthless. Just commit to the RR already; do a men's version, a women's version, a men's title match, and a women's title match and that's IT. Nothing else. That's the entire PPV. Then everything gets breathing room. Honestly, I truly believe that not even being on the PPV would be better for many of these performers than being pissed on with a 4 minute spot-match.

The Bloodline thing, though, is definitely one of the best storylines in wrestling. Amazing. So well executed and timed out. I really can't think of a single way any of this could be done better. It honestly feels like someone different is writing/booking the Bloodline segments than who is doing everything else in WWE right now because it's SO much better than everything else. By just an absolutely embarrassing margin.

[fac]

I also definitely have developed a real dislike of 'come in at number 30 and win.' Everyone KNEW Cody was going to win the Rumble. Least they could have done was work him a bit and have him be like.. number 18. Nope. Pops in. Doesn't do much. Wins. Boring. Predictable. Might as well have not even done a Royal Rumble. Just cancel it and say 'we gave Cody his Wrestlemania match' and stop wasting my time.

I'll defend Cody at 30, and not having a lot of returning legends, as being tied to the rumors of Rock being in the Rumble and those expectations. They couldn't deliver on that, so it meant that a) Cody had to come in 30, as anyone else at 30 would have been booed as not being the big surprise star after Cody came in, and b) having other surprise stars primes the pump for a surprise as well, so this was a good year to not do that too much. I also think it works to have the current roster in the Rumble as much as possible and use it to advance those stories. Roman, if he wants, could even make the lack of legends in the Rumble a story beat, evidence the Legends want no part of him, as they know he is the GOAT, so why tarnish their legend by being crushed by the Tribal Chief?

I agree in principle about coming in at 30 being a cop out, and on Raw just now the Judgment Day even shone a lantern on it by saying it was a cheap win for the Golden Boy. I thought the mini-match with Gunther helped a bit to make it seem like Cody earned it and that was why they booked it.

Not saying you should have liked it, but I think it made sense so the crowd didn't turn on the match or Cody.

Having said that, they can't split the Universal and Heavyweight soon enough for me. There is a story to be told of Roman being desperate to hold onto the remining belt after he loses one of them.

[KnightDamien]

I'll defend Cody at 30, and not having a lot of returning legends, as being tied to the rumors of Rock being in the Rumble and those expectations. They couldn't deliver on that, so it meant that a) Cody had to come in 30, as anyone else at 30 would have been booed as not being the big surprise star after Cody came in, and b) having other surprise stars primes the pump for a surprise as well, so this was a good year to not do that too much. I also think it works to have the current roster in the Rumble as much as possible and use it to advance those stories. Roman, if he wants, could even make the lack of legends in the Rumble a story beat, evidence the Legends want no part of him, as they know he is the GOAT, so why tarnish their legend by being crushed by the Tribal Chief?

Oh yeah - like I said, there's an argument to be made that there shouldn't even -be- 'Legends/part-timers' in the Rumble. Once you make it all about earning a shot at the title at Wrestlemania, you basically back yourself into the corner. That spot SHOULD, ideally, be going to current roster talent because they're the ones earning it and they're the ones that need to be lifted up so they can carry the company forward.

The dissatisfaction, for me, again really just comes down to them making the guest appearances, if we can call them that, such a regular thing that their lack really feels like a loss even when maybe it isn't. And it would bother me considerably less every year that they consistently don't do it, because its about setting a new standard. But for now.. it's that thing I expected to see and didn't and so it left me feeling a bit deflated.


As for Cody.. I get you. Here's the thing... it's not so much that Cody won or came in at 30. It's that they telegraphed him winning SO HARD and then to also have him come in at 30 was basically the equivalent of just having the match be cancelled and Cody declared the winner. 'We played the Rumble on the new WWE video game and Cody won so we're going with that to save some PPV time for other matches.' Gunther or not.. it did not feel earned. It felt cheap and even in the world of pro-wrestling, it felt pre-determined.

At least if you have Cody come in early and then make number 30 someone you could reasonably expect to MAYBE win.. like Edge or something.. that adds that moment of doubt like.. oh shit, maybe Edge will win and then he'll feud with Cody after, or something. Anything but 'oh yeah.. number 30 will be Cody and then he'll win. Whoopdeedoo...'

Having said that, they can't split the Universal and Heavyweight soon enough for me. There is a story to be told of Roman being desperate to hold onto the remining belt after he loses one of them.

I know we go back and forth here - not saying this in a fighty-tone at all, but I still can't disagree harder on this. Unify the belts. Make ONE top level champion, or the rest of the belts will never mean shit. Two world championships for the men and two for the women just makes the title picture altogether feel incredibly bloated and far less meaningful. One person at the top of the mountain. Or just stop playing tickle-dick and dump ALL the other singles titles in the trash, because that's about as important as they're ever going to be.

[fac]

Some AEW trolling ahead... (not that serious, just figure why not...)

They're already ruining the House of Black again.

Can you ruin something that no one cares about? I think you are one of its three fans.

Why is Mox even still around? Let him have his vacation. Please.

The AEW fanboys seem to love him. What does that tell you about them?

They gotta stop letting MJF talk so much.

Their Miz Jr problem is that, as Miz has shown, his schtick works best as the chicken-$#!& heel with a short title run, and they are trying to make him seem believable (maybe) as a legit long-term champ with a stable - the problem is, like Miz, he needs to be humiliated regularly for it to work, and his ring work doesn't lead to fear. I genuinely question how that 60-minute match will go. Maybe it will change my mind on MJF (who I enjoy, but his character and manner doesn't track with being vicious in the ring, at least to me he doesn't come across as tough enough for that), and Danielson can get a good match out of anyone, but I have a bad feeling that isn't going to work (I am not rooting for it not to work, but MJF and 60-min match seems at odds to me).

But I am sure there will be blood so it will be "real wrestling" and "intense".

[fac]

Unify the belts. Make ONE top level champion, or the rest of the belts will never mean shit. Two world championships for the men and two for the women just makes the title picture altogether feel incredibly bloated and far less meaningful. One person at the top of the mountain.

I'll support that, and I actually agree with it, if they have him stop carrying both belts and design a new belt that combines the two titles and they drop the two belts for the women. But they have kept the belts separate, and still have two for the women and two for the tags - so in that scenario I want them to split the men's again. Do one or the other...

If you combine those other titles (tag and women's), add a secondary women's title at a minimum.

Not AEW title crazy of course...

[KnightDamien]

Some AEW trolling ahead... (not that serious, just figure why not...)

No harm no foul!

Can you ruin something that no one cares about? I think you are one of its three fans.

I DO love them, but actually they used to get REALLY huge reactions until the losing became more common than the winning. That's common, I think. Even fan favorites (Dolph Ziggler is a good example, from some years ago) can start to lose their luster, and their fanbase, when the fans become convinced that supporting them won't mean anything because the company isn't behind them. I definitely see that happening with HoB. People have just given up on them. It's too depressing and exhausting to cheer for wrestlers that the company just isn't going to promote.

It's also why, I think, some of the cheers for Danhausen seem to be cooling off even while his merchandise is selling like crazy. It's tiring to get excited about him because they don't ever have him DO anything, and you can find him funny as a mascot character without screaming for him whenever he comes down the ramp.

Their Miz Jr problem is that, as Miz has shown, his schtick works best as the chicken-$#!& heel with a short title run, and they are trying to make him seem believable (maybe) as a legit long-term champ with a stable - the problem is, like Miz, he needs to be humiliated regularly for it to work, and his ring work doesn't lead to fear. I genuinely question how that 60-minute match will go. Maybe it will change my mind on MJF (who I enjoy, but his character and manner doesn't track with being vicious in the ring, at least to me he doesn't come across as tough enough for that), and Danielson can get a good match out of anyone, but I have a bad feeling that isn't going to work (I am not rooting for it not to work, but MJF and 60-min match seems at odds to me).

Saaaaaame.
The Iron Man match is going to be a proving ground. If he can hang and they tell a good story that's fun to watch all the way through it might cement him as a legit talent. If it's boring, which I think a lot of us are expecting, it's going to hurt. Let's be honest, even the most famous Iron Man match ever wasn't actually THAT great by today's standards. It was slow, boring in a lot of spots, and is mostly just remembered because of how it ended.

But that being said, I'm still interested in how they do it. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they've considered all this and have something in mind to make this memorable and worth watching for more than just the end.

Still, I'm already tired of MJF. Too much of his shtick is predicated on just saying the kind of horrible shit 'those other guys' would never let him say. Which makes it even funnier when he gets all smug about the 'bidding war' when any fan of both promotions could watch him for five minutes and know that he'd be a nobody in WWE specifically because of his whole thing being that he's too crude/awful for their programming.

And beyond that stuff, it's not like MJF has the market cornered on being a heel that calls the local fans names.

I'll support that, and I actually agree with it, if they have him stop carrying both belts and design a new belt that combines the two titles and they drop the two belts for the women. But they have kept the belts separate, and still have two for the women and two for the tags - so in that scenario I want them to split the men's again. Do one or the other...

Oh -absolutely-. I kind of always thought they'd just let him wear both titles until someone beats him, and that person would debut a new 'unified' title design. There's been rumors for a while that WWE is designing a new main belt, after all.

And yes, they -must- do the same thing for the women. Although I think the women still need an intermediate belt.

But I feel the same about the tag belts. The brand split is stupid. Having the same 'level' of belts for each show is stupid. Unify everything. Champs appear wherever they want and can be challenged on either show. Frankly, when you're running a company that basically shits all over tag teams, it's kind of crazy to have as many tag belts as they have. How many legit tag teams does WWE even have? Seven? C'mon.

If I were booking -- I'd do it all at Night of Champions. Make the name mean something and have all the belts with variants on the line. One big Unification Night. Writes itself.

[TFitz]

Yeah, a top title for both men and women. Keep both intermediate titles for the men and add one for the women. 1 set of tag titles each as well.

I think I'm done with AEW. I don't hate it at all, but twice now, I've given it around 6 months, and I just don't care about a lot of the wrestlers, so I quit watching. When I do, I don't miss it, which is the most telling part.

So who's WWE's best athlete that's basically a modern jobber? I'd say Chad Gable, with Ziggler as the runner up. Both guys are so !@#$ talented, but never get to win any matches.

[fac]

I'd add Mustafa Ali to that list?

[TFitz]

**looks for thumbs up button**

[KnightDamien]

Ziggler is for sure the MVP of underutilized talent kept in an undeserved jobber role. I only say him over Gable or Ali because Ziggler has been there for SO long, has proven a couple of times that the fans really could get behind him, and was still buried to the point where 'the fans don't care about him' became true because WWE made it true.

I do not say lightly at all that he really was the next Shawn Michaels, and Vince ruined it the same way he would have ruined the actual Shawn Michaels if Hogan hadn't left.



But Gable and Ali are still hard agrees.

Over in AEW, I was really excited for Neese because I thought AEW would be the company to use him well. He's incredibly talented. Nope. Jobber.